Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

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storysunfolding
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#31 Unread post by storysunfolding »

Hey guys-

Remember that at the end of the day the Basic RiderCourse is just a Basic Rider Course. It's only teaching basic skills and concepts and is not the end all of rider development or training. That said, can you use your front brake in slow tight turns? Absolutely, you just have to accept a higher probability of dropping the bike. It's something you can do, that I do do, but needs a finer motorskill than we expect from beginner riders. In regards to quick stops or any stop for that matter you should practice and always use both brakes. If you practice it regularly (say the end or beginning of every rider with no one behind you) you'll develop a muscle memory or perceptual motor skills that will help prevent you from hamfisting it and becoming a road smear.

When is it appropriate to use both brakes? For now, whenever you need them. Beginning riders should always be in the habit of using both brakes. The only caveat that I've seen a few coaches throw out is not when you're going 5 mph or less since it's more likely that you'll overapply the front and fall over. Most of the time you won't need a brake in a turn but I see this alot in heavy traffic situations (GO DC METRO AREA- WOOT!) so I don't mind throwing that out there.

Other thoughts- can you release a locked rear brake? Yep. It's a skill taught in advanced classes. You need to make sure your rear wheel is in alignment with the front or like HYPERR said, you're airborne and in for some hurt.
HYPERR wrote:A lot of experts including Keith Code says that the rear brake causes more accidents than it prevents. Rear wheel lockup and the lack of knowledge on what to do afterwards causes a ton of accidents; both lowsides and highsides.
I can't speak for other states but in Va, 1 in every 11 new riders (just adding an M endorsement) goes through a BRC. If they are getting instruction elsewhere, we cannot account for it and it's amazing what people will tell you about riding (i.e. don't use the front brake because it's dangerous). Keith does excessively point out that the rear brake causes more accidents than it prevents and like you said it's not the brake itself but improper application. That's why Keith invented his outrigger bike to teach the proper application of both brakes. It's a core component of the CSS school and their AMOS (advanced motorcycle operator school) program for Military Riders.

Further, a lot of racers modify their rear brake either with stopping shims, or different cylinders to make them so they are much more difficult to lock. It reduces their effectiveness, but still gives them more stopping power than using the front alone. A great idea if adrenaline makes your actions unpredictable.
HYPERR wrote:Actually on most bikes by design, the front brakes are much stronger.
Yep. One look at any modern cruiser or sportbike will show big rotors and more pistons up front than the rear (or in the case of some cruisers a DRUM brake in rear). You'll find the same thing on most motor vehicles. As the motorcycle decelerates, the weight transfers onto the front wheel. As that weight shifts forward you get more and more traction, hence why application of the front brake should be smooth and progressive. As that happens, weight leaves the rear and results in reduced traction on the rear wheel. On modern sportbikes, the metric is probably closer to shan-os 90/10 than the MSF's 70/30 front/rear ratio. However, the brake application doesn't change.

Can you go over the handlebars? Depends on the bike and how you apply the brakes. Slamming on the brakes on a sportbike isn't going to allow enough weight transfer to occur for there to be enough traction to let the bike endo. Instead the front wheel typically locks and the bike will lowside. Most cruisers will just lowside since they can't create enough traction for a good stoppie :)

HYPERR- My V-Strom has the same issue with the rear brake. It's much too powerful at regular street speeds.

Anyway- there's a lot to learn about motorcycling out there. Check through that BRC book, it's chock full of great info. Then pick up Proficient motorcycling, twist of the wrist 2, total control, the pace (just google this one), and sportbike techniques. All questions are answered in there (and more given obviously)
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Re: Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

#32 Unread post by storysunfolding »

dr_bar wrote: I always thought the difference was that the front brake was on the front wheel, and the back was on the rear wheel... :? :? :? :laughing:
Much more accurate brief and concise than my response. :cowboy:
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Re: Re:

#33 Unread post by HYPERR »

storysunfolding wrote:
Other thoughts- can you release a locked rear brake? Yep. It's a skill taught in advanced classes. You need to make sure your rear wheel is in alignment with the front or like HYPERR said, you're airborne and in for some hurt.
This certainly is a very advanced technique and one that is well worth mastering if one has the skills or the desire. 8) To time this just right is no small feat as the your rear end is wagging like the tail of a happy puppy. :shock:

storysunfolding wrote:Further, a lot of racers modify their rear brake either with stopping shims, or different cylinders to make them so they are much more difficult to lock. It reduces their effectiveness, but still gives them more stopping power than using the front alone. A great idea if adrenaline makes your actions unpredictable.
That's the thing, and an excellent point. No matter how flawlessly one can perform stops in a controlled practice session, it is another thing to perform it in a real world potential accident scenario. I don't know if I trust my adrenaline. :boat:
storysunfolding wrote: HYPERR- My V-Strom has the same issue with the rear brake. It's much too powerful at regular street speeds.
Yeah same with my R1150R. I have never ridden a bike with such hypersensitive rear brake. It's quite ridiculous. Sometimes I just mess around and at slow speeds, I just give it a gentle quick tap to lock it up and slide the rear just for the helluvit and for the entertainment of bystanders. :laughing: :roll:
I have also had bikes where I could literally stand on the pedal and stomp with all my might and not lock up the rear. :laughing:
I actually have pretty good mastery of the BMW brakes. I use the rear all the time. That being said, I don't trust my adrenaline with those hypersensitive rear brake and this is one bike I have made the decision to use only the front in real life panic stops.
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Re: Re:

#34 Unread post by storysunfolding »

HYPERR wrote:
storysunfolding wrote:
Other thoughts- can you release a locked rear brake? Yep. It's a skill taught in advanced classes. You need to make sure your rear wheel is in alignment with the front or like HYPERR said, you're airborne and in for some hurt.
This certainly is a very advanced technique and one that is well worth mastering if one has the skills or the desire. 8) To time this just right is no small feat as the your rear end is wagging like the tail of a happy puppy. :shock:

You'd be surprised at how early it's taught in rider development courses. They teach it in the MSF ARC-ST/MSRC which are both designed to be taken towards the end of your first year riding.
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Re: Re:

#35 Unread post by HYPERR »

storysunfolding wrote:
HYPERR wrote:
storysunfolding wrote:
Other thoughts- can you release a locked rear brake? Yep. It's a skill taught in advanced classes. You need to make sure your rear wheel is in alignment with the front or like HYPERR said, you're airborne and in for some hurt.
This certainly is a very advanced technique and one that is well worth mastering if one has the skills or the desire. 8) To time this just right is no small feat as the your rear end is wagging like the tail of a happy puppy. :shock:

You'd be surprised at how early it's taught in rider development courses. They teach it in the MSF ARC-ST/MSRC which are both designed to be taken towards the end of your first year riding.
Yes but being taught and actually mastering is a whole different matter. :wink:

When I bought my 2004 CBR600RR, Honda gave me a complimentary ERC course. At that time, I had been riding for 18 years so I knew I would not learn or benefit anything from it. Then GEICO told me they will give me 10% off on my liability portion of the insurance every year so I decided to take it. As you stated, they did indeed inform the class about this technique, but it was never actually perfomed.

BTW, an interesting story about how opposite our two instructors were. During the panic braking drill, they split us up into two groups and we had to perform the panic stop in front of the two instructors. I did a mini stoppie(intentional :mrgreen: ) and the first instructor actually commended me and said that I displayed full mastery of my brakes. I did the same thing in front of the second insturctor and he got real pissed and started screaming and yelling. He said that I locked up the front(I didn't ) and that I was lucky I didn't crash. :roll:
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Re: Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

#36 Unread post by storysunfolding »

He was probably pissed that you called it a panic stop. Seriously though, it doesn't take much to become a MSF instructor so you have to trust but verify everything you get.... except from me obviously :twisted:
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Re: Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

#37 Unread post by Wrider »

Yeah but you can't trust anyone that moderates a Honda forum and rides a Suzuki... :twisted:
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Re: Re:

#38 Unread post by johnb757 »

storysunfolding wrote:
HYPERR wrote:
storysunfolding wrote:
Other thoughts- can you release a locked rear brake? Yep. It's a skill taught in advanced classes. You need to make sure your rear wheel is in alignment with the front or like HYPERR said, you're airborne and in for some hurt.
This certainly is a very advanced technique and one that is well worth mastering if one has the skills or the desire. 8) To time this just right is no small feat as the your rear end is wagging like the tail of a happy puppy. :shock:

You'd be surprised at how early it's taught in rider development courses. They teach it in the MSF ARC-ST/MSRC which are both designed to be taken towards the end of your first year riding.
Question. Would that be The ERC here or is it a different class? If different, do you know where in Hampton Roads that would offer such a course? I do plan to go to any and every type of rider training out there.

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Re: Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

#39 Unread post by storysunfolding »

The current erc in va isn't an advanced course. It's designed to be taken almost immediately after the brc once you've gained some comfort on your bike. After that look for the lee parks total control advanced riding clinic.
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Re: Difference between front brakes and rear brakes?

#40 Unread post by storysunfolding »

Wrider wrote:Yeah but you can't trust anyone that moderates a Honda forum and rides a Suzuki... :twisted:

What can I say. When I started moderating I had a Goldwing and a cb360. I had to downsize the stable and the bikes that came out on top were two kawasakis, one suzuki, one yamaha and a gas gas. Honda hasn't gotten me into the store to look at any of their new bikes even with newenough.com promoting discount leather honda riding jackets.
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