Excellent figure 8

[storysunfolding]

I guess it just takes knowing you can do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Nv4bMq ... annel_page

[beginner]

I guess it just takes knowing you can do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Nv4bMq ... annel_page

On a motorcycle the word confidence has a more complicated meaning and that's been one of the most fascinating things about learning to ride.

On the bike it feels like I have a split personality. There is my ambitious, optimistic thinking mind and my hyper cautious motor/balance system.

For the sake of survival I pay a lot of attention to what my motor/balance system is comfortable or not comfortable doing. If it wants thousands of repetitions before doing something confidently then I'll be patient and provide those repetitions in practice.

If I belonged to the motorcycle equilivent of an equestrian club with a riding master, and other riders to watch, progress would be faster. Too bad there is no such thing.

How long has the rider in that video been riding? How long practicing?

[MrShake]

I guess it just takes knowing you can do it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Nv4bMq ... annel_page

On a motorcycle the word confidence has a more complicated meaning and that's been one of the most fascinating things about learning to ride.

On the bike it feels like I have a split personality. There is my ambitious, optimistic thinking mind and my hyper cautious motor/balance system.

For the sake of survival I pay a lot of attention to what my motor/balance system is comfortable or not comfortable doing. If it wants thousands of repetitions before doing something confidently then I'll be patient and provide those repetitions in practice.

If I belonged to the motorcycle equilivent of an equestrian club with a riding master, and other riders to watch, progress would be faster. Too bad there is no such thing.

This is exactly why an MSF or equivalent Motorcycle Class is a good idea. It provides feedback to help you move forward, even if just for a short time.

How long has the rider in that video been riding? How long practicing?

I think a REALLY good thing to take from that video, however, is that the confidence stems from the rider looking into the turns, and looking where he wants to go. If you truly understand what your bike is doing, you will be confident in the truth that the bike will go where you look!

[beginner]

If I belonged to the motorcycle equilivent of an equestrian club with a riding master, and other riders to watch, progress would be faster. Too bad there is no such thing.

This is exactly why an MSF or equivalent Motorcycle Class is a good idea. It provides feedback to help you move forward, even if just for a short time.

The new rider needs to be convinced to follow a prudent plan when that short time is over. Hundreds of hours of drills and exercises, spread over years, is a necessity. And the practice never ends because the motor/balance system requires constant reminders and reassurances.

I think a REALLY good thing to take from that video, however, is that the confidence stems from the rider looking into the turns, and looking where he wants to go. If you truly understand what your bike is doing, you will be confident in the truth that the bike will go where you look!

Your thinking mind learns from reading books and listening to lectures. The human motor/balance system learns nothing from that.

I've read that 90% of riders have not taken formal training. Then I have seen motorcycle instructors advise those riders shouldn't practice because they haven't taken a course. I disagree with that advice.

[TEvo]

:::Then I have seen motorcycle instructors advise those riders shouldn't practice because they haven't taken a course. I disagree with that advice.:::

Now if a untrained rider is practicing the wrong things, that's sort of like reinforcing bad riding behavior and subsequently, reinforcing poor skills, no?

No amount of parking lot practice is going to prepare you fully for riding in downtown Chicago during the rush hour commute but what it does give you is time to better develop motorcycle handling and control skills. Couple this with a course that gives the rider the street survival strategies to manage the risk of riding in this environment and then you start having a more complete picture.

Riding proficiency is a lifelong endeavor and the MSF recognizes that. Did you even read the MSF missions statement?

MISSION STATEMENT:
To make motorcycling safer and more enjoyable by ensuring access to lifelong quality education and training for current and prospective riders, and by advocating a safer riding environment.

KEY MESSAGES:
1. Get trained and licensed
2. Wear protective gear -- all the gear, all the time -- including a helmet manufactured to the standards set by the DOT
3. Ride unimpaired by alcohol or other drugs
4. Ride within your own skill limits
5. Be a lifelong learner by taking refresher rider courses

[MrShake]

Hundreds of hours of drills and exercises, spread over years, is a necessity.

This is where we are going to have to disagree. Your decided level or amount of "drills" are not, in my mind nessicary. Practice leads to better skill, but nothing can replace on-road learning.

You Start by learning a foundation and getting the help of others(Class Instruction)
You reinforce those skills with practice and drills
You become a master by using those skills in everyday or real world experiances

[beginner]

Now if a untrained rider is practicing the wrong things, that's sort of like reinforcing bad riding behavior and subsequently, reinforcing poor skills, no?

In effect you are advising 90% of riders they should not do drills and exercises. I don't agree with that.

No amount of parking lot practice is going to prepare you fully for riding in downtown Chicago during the rush hour commute but what it does give you is time to better develop motorcycle handling and control skills. Couple this with a course that gives the rider the street survival strategies to manage the risk of riding in this environment and then you start having a more complete picture.

This begs the question of how much drills and exercises riders should do. I don't oppose training. I criticize training that has a weak practice message.

MSF MISSION STATEMENT:
To make motorcycling safer and more enjoyable by ensuring access to lifelong quality education and training for current and prospective riders, and by advocating a safer riding environment.

KEY MESSAGES:
1. Get trained and licensed
2. Wear protective gear -- all the gear, all the time -- including a helmet manufactured to the standards set by the DOT
3. Ride unimpaired by alcohol or other drugs
4. Ride within your own skill limits
5. Be a lifelong learner by taking refresher rider courses

6. Be a life long practicer of drills and exercises.
My #6 needs to be added to the list and be fortified with a detailed explanation of why practice is essential and a road map for life long practice.

Hundreds of hours of drills and exercises, spread over years, is a necessity.

This is where we are going to have to disagree. Your decided level or amount of "drills" are not, in my mind nessesary. You Start by learning a foundation and getting the help of others (Class Instruction). You reinforce those skills with practice and drills. You become a master by using those skills in everyday or real world experiances

How much drills and exercises do you recommend for beginners? Nobody uses emergency maneuvering skills everyday unless they practice them every day.

[TEvo]

:::
In effect you are advising 90% of riders they should not do drills and exercises. I don't agree with that.
:::

These are your words. Not mine. How does the rider now the drills and exercises are useful without any guidance?

:::
This begs the question of how much drills and exercises riders should do. I don't oppose training. I criticize training that has a weak practice message.
:::

Yes it does, doesn't? At what point do these drills become junk miles? I have never heard an instructor of any riding program *not* emphasize additional practice after a 15 - 20 hr. course. In fact, most instructors I know emphasize the fact that after a course, the student has merely become proficient at the *basics* of operating a motorcycle in a controlled, close course environment, i.e. a parking lot and completion of the course is not a blank check to go buy an unsuitable bike and head out onto the nearest urban thoroughfare or highway.

:::
How much drills and exercises do you recommend for beginners? Nobody uses emergency maneuvering skills everyday unless they practice them every day.
:::

I agree with this... to a certain extent. Maximum braking and evasion/avoidance skills NEED to be practiced regularly. I typically incorporate this into most every ride I do.

However, if a rider finds him or herself utilizing or *depending* on "emergency manuevering" on a regular basis while street riding, I submit that rider is missing some very vital traffic and environmental awareness skills and street survival strategies.

What's your definition of an expert street rider?

I submit an expert rider is a rider who possesses but does not have to employ expert skills because he/she can identify hazardous situations ahead of time such that emergency manuevering is not needed.

[beginner]

:::In effect you are advising 90% of riders they should not do drills and exercises. I don't agree with that.::: These are your words. Not mine. How does the rider now the drills and exercises are useful without any guidance?

If you are going to advocate nobody practice until they take a course why not advocate that nobody should ride on the street until they have taken a course? That would take 90% of riders off the street.

:::This begs the question of how much drills and exercises riders should do. I don't oppose training. I criticize training that has a weak practice message.::: Yes it does, doesn't? At what point do these drills become junk miles? I have never heard an instructor of any riding program *not* emphasize additional practice after a 15 - 20 hr. course. In fact, most instructors I know emphasize the fact that after a course, the student has merely become proficient at the *basics* of operating a motorcycle in a controlled, close course environment, i.e. a parking lot and completion of the course is not a blank check to go buy an unsuitable bike and head out onto the nearest urban thoroughfare or highway.

The instructors' advice is persuading very few riders. what can be done to improve that situation?

Maximum braking and evasion/avoidance skills NEED to be practiced regularly. I typically incorporate this into most every ride I do.

I don't agree that riding around is a substitute for drills and exercises.

However, if a rider finds him or herself utilizing or *depending* on "emergency manuevering" on a regular basis while street riding, I submit that rider is missing some very vital traffic and environmental awareness skills and street survival strategies.

Experience and judgement are plan A. Skill is plan B. Eventually plan A fails to avoid an emergency. That's when skills come in handy.

What's your definition of an expert street rider?

Any rider who thinks he no longer needs drills and exercises to maintain skills.

I submit an expert rider is a rider who possesses but does not have to employ expert skills because he/she can identify hazardous situations ahead of time such that emergency manuevering is not needed.

Pretty much the same as my definition.

[jstark47]

Nobody uses emergency maneuvering skills everyday unless they practice them every day.

Sorry, beginner, but I call BS. I don't need to practice panic stops and evasion manuevers daily to be able to use them at need. Nine months of the year I commute through heavy traffic, some of it high speed, 62 miles round trip per day. I've been doing it for four years. My skills mastery is sufficient to keep me alive and thriving on the road.

If your on-road experience is as minimal as you've presented in your other thread, you're not qualified to make pronouncements about what skills are used in daily riding. What you choose to believe for your own riding is your business, but I'm concerned noobs might read some of these threads and mistake your passion for your particular viewpoint as expertise.

I submit an expert rider is a rider who possesses but does not have to employ expert skills because he/she can identify hazardous situations ahead of time such that emergency manuevering is not needed.

+1000!!! And you won't learn this in a parking lot...