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Spiff wrote:I will send $100 to a charity of your choice, in your name, if you can provide conclusive evidence that the ACLU has directly tried to force private corporations to abandon saying "Merry Christmas" and replace that phrase with a more generic holiday greeting.

Are those crickets I hear chirping?

I would have thought that a $100 offer would have brought out some evidence ... especially considering how earnsestly people believe in this supposd effort by the ACLU.

Yet, after being away from this thread for a week, I come back and find ... no evidence offered.

Should I up the reward, to $1,000, or should I conclude that there are a lot of very angry people out there who are basing their anger on ... false information?

Maybe it you made it $100k [we're all wealthy here and a mere $100 just doesn't get our attention] and put up certified, notarized copies of your bank account proving you can actually pay off, maybe somebody will work on it. We are very busy, however. Good luck in your new job at the ACLU.

Spiff wrote: Should I up the reward, to $1,000, or should I conclude that there are a lot of very angry people out there who are basing their anger on ... false information?

I would conclude that there are a lot of people out here (in the world in general) who base their opinions on hearsay and rhetoric. Hatred for the liberals, hatred for the conservatives, hatred towards the Arabs, Hatred towards the Jews or Christians. Most of the hate is based on pre-judging and second hand information or hate based on what you were raised to believe in your family. If you came from a family of bigots, it is harder for you to think differently. If you were raised by bleeding hearts, you are that much more likely to only see things that way. When we feel this way we think we are right and others are wrong. Proof and logic be dammed.

In the end, I respect what everyone else thinks, and I try to not make a judgment call when I don't know an issue or a person. Sentences that start "Republicans always...." or "The ACLU never..." are problems. You can't tell me the ACLU has done no good at all in this country. You also cannot convince me the ACLU always has logic in hand when they pick a fight.

I'm not big fan of the ACLU, but they are mostly trying to protect the rights of individuals, and sometimes the individuals protected are part of one or another controversial group. Gays, flag burners, African Americans, and Nazis to name a few. They have the rights because of what the founders of this great country fought for - fight to change the law if you don't like that fact, but don't just slam something because of a stand they took that you don't agree with - that is being very closed minded. Nothing they've done was ever just to be jerks. You might not agree, but there is nothing about anything in the ACLU charter that seems to say "let’s just do things to make people mad". And I know when the ACLU fights for party's right to speak it makes people mad, but we didn't get to where we are today by stopping someone we didn't agree with from talking.

Why fight against Christmas? I don't get it myself. I've never met one person from another religion who complained about Christmas or Christmas displays. If I every heard anyone complain it was a Christian who thought it was wrong to celebrate the birth of Christ with Pagan rituals (Santa, trees, wreaths, mistletoe - all Pagan). I think a few loud Atheists got up and decided this was something they could fight. The ACLU would support any fight that stands on constitutional grounds, and the display on government ground was unconstitutional under division of government and religion. They have never fought to remove a display in a privately owned space (including a business). This year many companies decided to nix the word Christmas. I don't care myself what they call it - it is a personal thing what I call my holiday and how I celebrate. I won't not shop somewhere for changing the name and I won't shop somewhere because they kept the old name.


If you have a silly beef (or a serious one) and it points out where society or government are out of line, you mint you might have the ACLU in your corner. I don't believe the ACLU is evil but I don't think they are free from being corupt like any other orginization. I respect that they are not afraid to take on issues that are not popular and protect people who would otherwise not be able to stand up for their right under law. I hope I never need them - if I do I suspect I will be on the unpopular side of a issue.

Lawyers - everybody hates them until they need to be defended. You may not like them, but unless we initiate anarchy I see no way to do without them and see no reason to think they are all operating with evil intent.

Personally any athiest who thinks we should ban that sort of thing (God bless us, Christmas etc) makes me ashamed to be an athiest.

One of the important things to me about being an athiest is that people respect my choice and do not tell me that I have to beleive, or try to change my opinion. I think that applies to most of us. However, some of us don't respect others enough to afford them the same respect. Hence my shame.

Two very good post by scanevalexec and Sevulturus.

scanevalexec said: "don't just slam something because of a stand they took that you don't agree with - that is being very closed minded."

To which I would also add, "Don't slam anyone based on false information," for that's exactly what's been happening here regarding this latest slander against the ACLU.

It is 100% false that the ACLU has been pressuring private corporations, retailers in particular, to drop "Merry Christmas" and replace it with "Happy Holidays." These decisions were pure marketing decisions by these companies solely to fatten their bottom lines by pitching thier goods to people of all religions.

Look, you can hate the ACLU for what it actually does ... that's no skin off my back. In his very thoughtful post, scanevalexec pointed out that what the ACLU does is open to interpretation, precisely because the intentions of our founders were sometimes vague as they constructed the Constitution.

But only dishonest and close-minded people would hate the ACLU based on lies that they make up about it, and it's a lie to say that the ACLU is in any way pressuring private retailers.

And to oldnslo, I say this: If you are pressed for time, please just simply go to the ACLU Web site ( http://www.aclu.org/ ), click on the "Corporate anti-Christmas campaign" link, and then click on the "Success stories" link. That should take you right to the truth of the matter.

One of the important things to me about being an athiest is that people respect my choice and do not tell me that I have to beleive, or try to change my opinion. I think that applies to most of us. However, some of us don't respect others enough to afford them the same respect.

Well said. I encourage people to share their traditions, and I enjoy learning and participating in them as well...I may not share their beliefs, but I think its horrible how some atheists are just plain hypocrits.

I think most who read the first post by Wiz regarded it as light-hearted humor. A minority chose instead to launch a diatribe just for the sake of being "right" about the intentions and actions of the ACLU.
I don't care about what the ACLU does unless they get on my radar screen for one reason or another. They seem to need defending, and Spiff seems more than willing to take on the job. Fine.
The original post was merely poking fun at political correctness. What is so difficult to see about that? Sheesh!

Well, in fairness, the whole "the ACLU can kiss my butt" thing kinda set me off ...

And parody or not, the OP took an unfair jab at the organization, and I just wanted to set the record straight.

Serious personal study of the first ammendment of the constitution will reveal that the "separation of church and state" is not in there. There is, however, assurance that the government will not interfere in church issues. The verbage "separation of church and state" simply isn't there. Read this, and be educated...

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

The aclu is striving to accomplish the opposite of the original intent of the constitution to protect freedom of religion from government intrusion. As for offending folks. You need my permission to offend me...and nobody has it .

Merry Christmas...the holiday you shouldn't take off from work if you don't believe in Jesus Christ...messiah. If anyone is offended...I guess I had your permission to offend you. If not, you won't care.