Excellent figure 8

[TEvo]

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There is nothing to insure that people who take a course practice the right things unless they are taking a class with recurring lessons.
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Something the MSF could do, as I suggested earlier is make a 6th recommendation, that riders be "life-long practicers" and elaborate on that.
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They have exposure to the exercises in the BRC. Of which there are 17. Downloadable practice guides based on the BRC are available on the Internet.

As part of the curriculum, instructors are specifically told to let participants know additional training is available, like the Experienced RiderCourse and other training curricula.

However, statistics show that for the majority of riders, the BRC is the ONLY formal training they enroll in. For better of for worse, once they pass the BRC, regardless of how much the instructors harp on additional training, only a small fraction of post-basic rider course graduates decide to take further training.

It's that horse to water cliche again...

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The definition I offered is what I observe in the riding community. In most sports the experts practice more than the beginners. In motorcycle riding it's the reverse.
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I don't know where you get this idea... racers put in countless laps during pre-season testing and also during the practice sessions over the course of a race weekend. Professional stunt riders like Christian Pfeiffer or Jason Britten put in countless hours of practice (and likely, a legion of damaged/destroyed bikes) throughout their career.

I can't think of a single "expert" rider that doesn't incorporate some level of skill reinforcement or enhancement into their routine. They just may not do it in the manner you subscribe to.

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Practice and riding around aren't mutually exclusive. It's possible to do both. I do both. Most people ride around and tell themselves that riding around is all the practice they need. I don't agree with that.
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Drills and exercises in a parking is safer than riding in traffic. It seems prudent to develop significant skills before plunging into traffic. What beginners are doing now is riding in traffic before skills are developed. Isn't it safer to do the reverse?
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As others have said, it is commendable that you advocate extensive static environment practice. I can respect that.

Although, I have to say... by your account, since we have so many unpracticed - and therefore by your definition unskilled - riders out there we should have so many injuries and fatalities that motorcycling would have been outlawed by lawmakers by now.

[ofblong]

He needs to be banned because its obvious his only motive is to turn true beginners away from real encouragment and to NOT ride until you have taken the MSF course.

I don't say people shouldn't take a course. I think riders should be advised to do drills and exercises and take a course. If they don't take the course they should still practice. And the training courses should recommend riders be life long practicers.

For me I STAYED OFF the bike UNTIL after I took the MSF course.

I wasn't aware of motorcycle training until after the bike was home.

I would rather be safe and not ride till the MSF so that I get trained how to CORRECTLY do the right practice skills than do them wrong and have to undo the incorrect ways to correctly do the correct ways.

I'm sure you did the right thing. In the mean time it should be possible for people who practice to discuss practice.

as for practice everyday in a parking lot... NO ONE needs to do that unless they are truly incapable of learning. I would say when I ride 5 out of 7 days I have to use my skills to avoid an accident. out of my just shy of 3 years riding only ONCE have I had to use emergency braking to avoid an accident because I PAY ATTENTION to whats going on around me.

How much practice someone needs should depend on their skills and what they want for a safety margin. I find the most reliable measure of my current skill level is to test that in an exercise. On the first ride of the day I need 15 minutes of maneuvering before I'm riding as well as the day before. I'm aware that motor police and others warm up before heading on to the street. You may not need to take those precautions but I don't see why you need to argue against them.

I am not arguing against it. What I am saying is not everyone needs to practice every day and someone shouldnt be told to do so. They should be told about the MSF and learn the proper way to practice and that practice should be a lifelong "choir" (sorry not sure of the word im thinking of). But they shouldnt be told you need to practice everyday because thats just not true. Warming up IS NOT the same as practicing. They warm up to get ready for a job that they will be at most likely for 12 hours not a quick trip to work and back. Everyone should stretch before going on a long trip as well but I bet most people dont.

[beginner]

Although, I have to say... by your account, since we have so many unpracticed - and therefore by your definition unskilled - riders out there we should have so many injuries and fatalities that motorcycling would have been outlawed by lawmakers by now.

In one of the Scandanavian nations there is discussion of banning motorcycles. In China bikes are being confiscated by the 10's of thousands. The China situation does not seem to be related to safety but it's unsettling.

In America there seems to be a 10 year uptrend in serious crashes and fatalities and concern about that. Trends like that can be persistent. It would be wise for the community and the industry to get ahead of it. More practice may be an untapped opportunity to reduce crash rates.

[beginner]

What I am saying is not everyone needs to practice every day and someone shouldnt be told to do so.

My recommendations about practice are based on my personal experience because I can find no other recommendations of any kind except the people who say practice (drills and exercises) are of limited importance. It should be possible to devise a study to see what contribution practice can make to safety. The challenge is there is so little practice going on that assembling a statistically significant study group would be a challenge.

They should be told about the MSF and learn the proper way to practice and that practice should be a lifelong "choir" (sorry not sure of the word im thinking of). But they shouldnt be told you need to practice everyday because thats just not true. Warming up IS NOT the same as practicing. They warm up to get ready for a job that they will be at most likely for 12 hours not a quick trip to work and back. Everyone should stretch before going on a long trip as well but I bet most people dont.

Warming up is the first 15 minutes of practice. I'm not talking about forcing people to do things. I'm talking about what should be recommended by responsible authorities.

[TEvo]

:::
In America there seems to be a 10 year uptrend in serious crashes and fatalities and concern about that. Trends like that can be persistent. It would be wise for the community and the industry to get ahead of it. More practice may be an untapped opportunity to reduce crash rates.
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The commensurate increase in motorcycle registrations probably has more to do with this uptrend than anything.

[storysunfolding]

I think this topic... and pretty much all from beginner will be beaten to death.

I think without an epiphany nothing will change his mind given how he gets the same response at every forum he visits. However, one of these days he's going to think he's riding rails and get passed by a newly minted BRC student on a vespa. Until that day, let's all just give it a rest.

[Brackstone]

I think this topic... and pretty much all from beginner will be beaten to death.

I think without an epiphany nothing will change his mind given how he gets the same response at every forum he visits. However, one of these days he's going to think he's riding rails and get passed by a newly minted BRC student on a vespa. Until that day, let's all just give it a rest.

I agree with this, it's just about agreeing to disagree.

I'm not saying the majority is always right but in this situation the majority of riders believes taking the BRC, and not being self taught, is the safest way to do things.

Even in the hurt report it said 92% of motorcyclists involved in accidents did not have professional training. I think that speaks for itself enough.

If beginner wants to be OCD about his practicing just let him be, I'm getting tired of clicking "Mark as Read" all the time

[JC Viper]

I think this topic... and pretty much all from beginner will be beaten to death.

I think without an epiphany nothing will change his mind given how he gets the same response at every forum he visits. However, one of these days he's going to think he's riding rails and get passed by a newly minted BRC student on a vespa. Until that day, let's all just give it a rest.

I agree with this, it's just about agreeing to disagree.

I'm not saying the majority is always right but in this situation the majority of riders believes taking the BRC, and not being self taught, is the safest way to do things.

Even in the hurt report it said 92% of motorcyclists involved in accidents did not have professional training. I think that speaks for itself enough.

If beginner wants to be OCD about his practicing just let him be, I'm getting tired of clicking "Mark as Read" all the time

Wait, you mean riding out into NYC traffic during rush hour wet behind the ears is a bad thing???

I tell ya, if you wanna learn clutch and brake control and situation awareness then my place is the perfect training ground.

Also, having not learned through BRC or any other MSF course instead relying on my driving instructor turned out to be much better as I got to experience traffic while being supervised from behind by the instructor in a cage. Unless that also counts as professional training (some people I spoke with said I was stupid for not using MSF).

[MrShake]

He needs to be banned because its obvious his only motive is to turn true beginners away from real encouragment and to NOT ride until you have taken the MSF course.

I don't say people shouldn't take a course. I think riders should be advised to do drills and exercises and take a course. If they don't take the course they should still practice. And the training courses should recommend riders be life long practicers.

Beginner... THEY DO.... now.. read that again... THEY DO

Let me be more clear. MSF Instructors and Trainers, Follow-up literature, Professional Training Courses, Books on the subject, ALL, and I repeat, ALL recommend riders be life long practicers. How hard is that to understand?

Do you honestly believe, if on the last page of the MSF manual for the BRC course, they added a #6 that said to be a life long practicer and added more (because there are already MSF avaliable drills published) drills to the back end of the book.. suddenly everyone would spend hundreds of hours in PLP as you advocate?

[ofblong]

He needs to be banned because its obvious his only motive is to turn true beginners away from real encouragment and to NOT ride until you have taken the MSF course.

I don't say people shouldn't take a course. I think riders should be advised to do drills and exercises and take a course. If they don't take the course they should still practice. And the training courses should recommend riders be life long practicers.

Beginner... THEY DO.... now.. read that again... THEY DO

Let me be more clear. MSF Instructors and Trainers, Follow-up literature, Professional Training Courses, Books on the subject, ALL, and I repeat, ALL recommend riders be life long practicers. How hard is that to understand?

Do you honestly believe, if on the last page of the MSF manual for the BRC course, they added a #6 that said to be a life long practicer and added more (because there are already MSF avaliable drills published) drills to the back end of the book.. suddenly everyone would spend hundreds of hours in PLP as you advocate?

he has been told that they do 600x now. there is just no getting him to understand the english language. Plus in my state if you take the MSF you can take the certificate to the sos take the written test and get your liscence without ever having riden on the road. But you will have taken a course that is the BEGINNING of learning to ride the proper way and to practice the correct way. so $25 for the msf plus $23 for the sos test = $48 to have your endorsement. Or you can pay some private company $75 for the course test (no training) then IF you pass another $23 for your liscence. Thats like almost double the price. and since he is in the same state I am in its the same for beginner.