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HYPERR wrote:

hi-side wrote: it slides into gear.

That's a good way of putting it. In a properly executed clutchless upshift, the gears are never forced in. The shifter is ever so slightly loaded and when the throttle is closed a smidgen, the upshift is so smooth and effortless, it's like as the gear is being sucked in by vacuum.

Smooth like buttah...

hi-side wrote:

jonnythan wrote:Can someone explain how you "match revs" without using the clutch?

You slightly load the shifter with your foot, then when you just back off the throttle and the revs are matched with rear wheel speed, it slides into gear.

But if you're currently in one gear, the RPMs are, literally, locked to a fixed number given your speed.

The gear you're going into will lock the RPMs into a quite different number.

There can be no RPM matching when you're moving instantly from one engine speed to another. You can't vary the RPMs with the tranny in gear.

It might work fine, but to say you can "RPM match" is silly, because you can't.

jonnythan wrote:

hi-side wrote:

jonnythan wrote:Can someone explain how you "match revs" without using the clutch?

You slightly load the shifter with your foot, then when you just back off the throttle and the revs are matched with rear wheel speed, it slides into gear.

But if you're currently in one gear, the RPMs are, literally, locked to a fixed number given your speed.

The gear you're going into will lock the RPMs into a quite different number.

There can be no RPM matching when you're moving instantly from one engine speed to another. You can't vary the RPMs with the tranny in gear.

It might work fine, but to say you can "RPM match" is silly, because you can't.

You are matching the speed of a given gear with the speed of the wheel. The lower gear is spinning faster than the higher gear, but both are spinning at revolutions such that the teeth mesh and it is an easy transfer. The wheel speed stays constant, while the engine speed does not. He was simply asking how to match wheel speed with engine speed.

hi-side wrote:You are matching the speed of a given gear with the speed of the wheel. The lower gear is spinning faster than the higher gear, but both are spinning at revolutions such that the teeth mesh and it is an easy transfer. The wheel speed stays constant, while the engine speed does not. He was simply asking how to match wheel speed with engine speed.

For a given speed, you can't alter the engine speed while you're in gear.

It's as simple as that. While traveling a given speed, you can't do anything whatsoever to the engine speed to "match" it to what the engine speed is about to be when you move into the next gear.

Like I said, it might work well, I don't know. I'm sure throttle variations can do a lot to make the process smoother. But you can't match revs like you can when you use the clutch, because the engine speed is quite literally locked to the wheel speed and, as such, it cannot be altered.

jonnythan wrote:
Like I said, it might work well, I don't know. I'm sure throttle variations can do a lot to make the process smoother. But you can't match revs like you can when you use the clutch, because the engine speed is quite literally locked to the wheel speed and, as such, it cannot be altered.

I was talking about clutchless upshifts. Matching revs is for downshifting.

HYPERR wrote:

jonnythan wrote:
Like I said, it might work well, I don't know. I'm sure throttle variations can do a lot to make the process smoother. But you can't match revs like you can when you use the clutch, because the engine speed is quite literally locked to the wheel speed and, as such, it cannot be altered.

I was talking about clutchless upshifts. Matching revs is for downshifting.

If you're not using the clutch, you can't match revs going in either direction.

It's a physical impossibility.

Jonnythan, what he's talking about is letting off of the throttle enough so that the dogs of the gears are no longer under stress, as he's pulling it out of one gear it matches up with the next gear just long enough that the dogs can engage, then the throttle kicks in again and you continue accelerating away...
Wrider

Wrider wrote:Jonnythan, what he's talking about is letting off of the throttle enough so that the dogs of the gears are no longer under stress, as he's pulling it out of one gear it matches up with the next gear just long enough that the dogs can engage, then the throttle kicks in again and you continue accelerating away...
Wrider

That makes perfect sense to me, and seems the only sensible way to shift without the clutch.

It sure ain't "rev matching" though

jonnythan wrote:

Wrider wrote:Jonnythan, what he's talking about is letting off of the throttle enough so that the dogs of the gears are no longer under stress, as he's pulling it out of one gear it matches up with the next gear just long enough that the dogs can engage, then the throttle kicks in again and you continue accelerating away...
Wrider

That makes perfect sense to me, and seems the only sensible way to shift without the clutch.

It sure ain't "rev matching" though

You guys are both right but I think are talking about two different things.

You are referring to the technique that people use to match RPMs by remembering how much the RPM increase are in downshifts and blipping the throttle, correct? If so, that technique is only relevant in downshifts.

HYPERR wrote:You guys are both right but I think are talking about two different things.

You are referring to the technique that people use to match RPMs by remembering how much the RPM increase are in downshifts and blipping the throttle, correct? If so, that technique is only relevant in downshifts.

That is rev matching, yes.

However, you can only do that when using the clutch.