MSF or self-learn riding

[beginner]

This is the problem here... you are participating in a ridiculous amount of practice. Either you've yet to procure the confidence you need to ride, your you just REALLY enjoy running drills. YOUR enjoyment or perspective does not fact make. I can not agree that the average rider needs DAILY drills to be a competent or safe rider. I can not agree that ridiculous amounts of practice are required.

I managed 300 total hours including 150 hours of PLP in the first 6 months. I'm still not certain I can maneuver the bike in a panic situation as well as my car. Next Spring I'll continue to divide riding time 50-50 on practice and riding around. Daily practice seems advisable. I need 15 minutes in the parking lot before I'm handling the bike as smoothly as the day before. Better to spend that vulnerable time in the parking lot than in traffic. The amount I practice is only ridiculous compared to what everbody else does but it's not ridiculous compared to what everybody else should do.

You have no basis to determine whether or not you are practicing with correct technique.

Thanks to youtube I can watch a lot of good riders, very good riders. I've learned a lot from that.

I recommend EVERYONE take the MSF or equivalent course before trying to ride in a real-world situation. Those courses give you the foundation to build on so that you can become a safe and competent rider!

What I recommend is that taking a course is valuable but ongoing drills and exercises are essential if safety is a consideration. Why are you so certain it's impossible to become a proficient rider without taking one particular course that most riders have not taken. Most riders haven't taken any course.

Practice is fundamental in becoming better, but practice alone is not beneficial unless you are practicing the correct things, the right way.

I think practice is beneficial even for riders who have not taken a course and even if they are not doing everything the way you might think is perfect. The parking lot is a lot safer place for a bignner to be than on the street.

We have no information available to us as to where you learned what you practice.

Lots of youtube videos and some online articles.

As far as we know, you may not be practicing counter-steering.

Rest assured I can demonstrate countersteering at will. The bike has to lean or it can't turn. You can lean the bike by steering the wheels out from under the bike (countersteer) then turn the front wheel in the direction of the lean or you can shift upper body weight to the side, away from the turn, to cause the lean (counterbalance), then turn the wheel.

You may not be practicing proper use of the front brake (as it provides 70%+ of your braking power).

Effective emergency braking is taking the longest to learn. I've had one emergency (no time to think) stop, for deer. I performed well. So far so good.

You may not be practicing looking during turns.

It depends on the situation. In the parking lot on tight balance turns I'm not swiveling my head a lot. I do the most head turning on the road. I like to do figure 8's in an actual (quiet) street where there could be traffic and on every turn do a head check, four per complete figure 8.

You may not have practiced clutch control.

I don't use the clutch or rear brake in turning practice. I do have some clutch exercises, slow riding and the age old 2by4 stop-and-climb-stop-and-climb.

Any one of those things, if overlooked could cause you to be an unsafe rider.

Too little practice could make someone an unsafe rider too.

And we have NO IDEA if your practicing those things, because you have not taken the class that provides the foundation for learning.

Most of the people who take courses and most of the people who don't take courses rarely, if ever, do drills and exercises so whether someone has taken a course dosen't prove anything about how much they do drills and exercises. Here is some evidence that I practice. This is only a few of the exercises I do, a few things I wanted to watch. http://www.youtube.com/user/motormanmagoo

Here is skill that I admire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wy ... annel_page

[storysunfolding]

What percent of your riding time might be on drills and exercises? My favorite exercise is 18by36 foot figure 8s (4 parking spaces). Do you do that one? Do you have a couple of favorite exercises? I wish I had a practice group. Are there any riders in the group who have stand out maneuvers? If so could you describe a couple of them.

I never calculated how much time I spent compared to the rest of my time riding. Since I ride every day and often get up to 100 miles a day PLP probably represents less than 5% of my riding time. I usually have a two hour clinic once a week for new riders during the regular rider season and always hit a parking lot when switching between some of my bikes, for instance sidecar which turns to V-strom which leans.

I think we all do figure eights. The size depends on the bike. For instance I can do a 2 foot by 6 foot figure 8 on my trials bike, and need a bit more room than you to do the same on the sidecar. 15 feet is easy enough to do on most bikes except for longer cruisers and certain sport bikes. They are much more fun to do gymkhana style as you trail brake through the turn and slam on the gas one your straight again.

As far as manuevers go I like the police rodeo setups. You can find many on google but the iron cross is a fun one to compete with on times.

Here are some fun ones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55uXGvPksAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lvl9XIT ... re=related

[ofblong]

As far as practice goes. I have 94 different exercises that I run through. It covers all my styles of riding (dirt, trials, cruising, sportbike and sidecar). There is no way I can practice them all daily let alone weekly. However, most of the skills are reinforced by everyday riding and the true important ones such as swerving and braking I practice on every ride. It's very simple to do.

Swerve-Pick an object on the road at various speeds, swerve around it. You can do this for the entire ride if you'd like. It involves various speeds, road conditions, and objects. In my opinion as both a rider and an instructor, it's better practice than in a parking lot.

Quick Stops (btw, if you're panicking on your motorcycle, you're already in trouble).
On an open stretch of road with no traffic behind you and no oncoming intersections, do a quick stop. You can do it from 15-70 mph. While you're at it, throw in an evade, or a slow then evade to further mix it up.

My motorcycle group has a big practice once a month. It's not the only time we practice as individuals but it allows us to think up new things to challenge each other, or attempt to hone our skills to best each other at set exercises.

Personally I find practice to be wonderful, but I see many people who, like lionlady suggests, practice wrong and even dangerous techniques. You should seriously consider instruction to ensure that you aren't teaching yourself things that will get you killed later on.

What percent of your riding time might be on drills and exercises? My favorite exercise is 18by36 foot figure 8s (4 parking spaces). Do you do that one? Do you have a couple of favorite exercises? I wish I had a practice group. Are there any riders in the group who have stand out maneuvers? If so could you describe a couple of them.

right there you are doing the figure 8 wrong. its a 14x20 foot box in michigan. If I remember right it varies state to state but I could be wrong on that. I can do figure 8's in TWO YES THATS TWO parking spaces. How much do I practice?? about once a month. Again yes everyday riding is just like practice only its for real. Same thing as practicing but your doing the maneuvers for fact instead of fiction.

Oh and from the fact that you use 4 parking spaces that tells me you are doing the figure 8's INCORRECTLY. Most likely due to the fact YOU HAVE NEVER TAKEN THE MSF.

[Gummiente]

I can do figure 8's in TWO YES THATS TWO parking spaces.

Oh, yeah? I can do figure 8's in ONE AND A HALF parking spaces. In reverse.

[beginner]

I never calculated how much time I spent compared to the rest of my time riding. Since I ride every day and often get up to 100 miles a day PLP probably represents less than 5% of my riding time.

I count moving time in hours and only watch miles for oil changes. I carry a hand held GPS wedged between the steering bar and the cowling. That's how I know how much time I'm spending on the bike. My concentration is depleted after an hour of PLP and my bottom is worn out afte two hours on the 4" wide seat.

I usually have a two hour clinic once a week for new riders during the regular rider season and always hit a parking lot when switching between some of my bikes, for instance sidecar which turns to V-strom which leans.

At first I practiced a lot because of feeling unstable on the bike, then because pride demands I ride the bike with some style. After about 40 hours I got addicted to skill so the parking lot is as much fun as riding around, may be more fun because there is less risk.

I think we all do figure eights. The size depends on the bike. For instance I can do a 2 foot by 6 foot figure 8 on my trials bike, and need a bit more room than you to do the same on the sidecar. 15 feet is easy enough to do on most bikes except for longer cruisers and certain sport bikes.

I can do 14 foot figure 8s slow, in first gear as a balancing maneuver but 18' allows more speed, I like the rollercoaster feel, it feels more productive. Plus the parking lot lines are 18' so I don't have to set up cones.

They are much more fun to do gymkhana style as you trail brake through the turn and slam on the gas one your straight again.

At about 12 weeks I started visiting the gymkhana style figure 8 about once a week to see if I was ready to seriously practice that, I'm not yet. Here is a good example of what you are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQUeGlRT ... e[quote]As far as manuevers go I like the police rodeo setups. You can find many on google but the iron cross is a fun one to compete with on times.[/quote]Nobody but police get to ride their courses. Nobody else has that many cones, the time to set them up, or the ability to hog a parking lot that way. Motor police courses are intentionally designed to make sure that only motor police can do what motor police do. Instead motor police should compete on courses that allow the public to join the competition on an equal footing. That would interest lots of riders, that would promote practice big time. Go beat a motorcycle cop in a maneuvering competition, how much fun would that be?

I wonder how many hours of PLP the policeman in your video does every week? I wonder what exercises he does, that I haven't discovered yet? I'll never know because he'll never tell me. He might help me stay a beginner for the rest of my days but that's going to be it. Even though tax dollars pay for their training and their riding time, motor police contribute nothing, nada, zip to the motorcycle safety discussion relating to their forte--skills and practice. I have a problem with that.

[storysunfolding]

At first I practiced a lot because of feeling unstable on the bike, then because pride demands I ride the bike with some style. After about 40 hours I got addicted to skill so the parking lot is as much fun as riding around, may be more fun because there is less risk.

Right... but months later you're still leagues behind my students that have taken the BRC, ERC and an ARC all in one year. They've already mastered trail braking, advanced cornering and body positioning in addition to the limit space maneuvers, threshold braking and swerves. Your inability to do a gymkhana style figure 8 confirms this in my mind.

I can do 14 foot figure 8s slow, in first gear as a balancing maneuver

A balancing maneuver? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Here's a fun one though- Try a slow ride figure 8. As a beginner (rimshot) it should take you two minutes to complete one rotation, then work on getting that number higher. Now that's a balancing routine.

18' allows more speed, I like the rollercoaster feel, it feels more productive.

Agreed, leaning into the turn and countersteering is much more fun

Nobody but police get to ride their courses. Nobody else has that many cones, the time to set them up, or the ability to hog a parking lot that way.

Um... I do? 8 cans of tennis balls and I have more cones than I need for a full circuit. If you ask, many motormen will let you come on the range with them. Also, setting up these courses is something we do monthly. Not sure where you're getting this info.

Motor police courses are intentionally designed to make sure that only motor police can do what motor police do. Instead motor police should compete on courses that allow the public to join the competition on an equal footing.

What do you mean by that? We have a HOG versus fairfax county police competition every few years. The cops only win about half the time.

Go beat a motorcycle cop in a maneuvering competition, how much fun would that be?

No FFX county motorman has been able to beat one of our local MSF coaches in a slow ride. ever. He even kneels on the seat so he can't use the rear brake and has his wife ride pillion. Cops rarely if ever learn to modulate with the front brake. That is a hard to develop advanced technique so they're never taught it.

I'll never know because he'll never tell me. He might help me stay a beginner for the rest of my days but that's going to be it. Even though tax dollars pay for their training and their riding time, motor police contribute nothing, nada, zip to the motorcycle safety discussion relating to their forte--skills and practice. I have a problem with that.

You can go take a police style course though the ones available to civilians often leave out high speed chases, rolling dismounts and stair navigation (and they can keep those!). You can find their exercises online. There are ride like a motorman DVD's. I think you just haven't looked in the right places.

[ofblong]

I never calculated how much time I spent compared to the rest of my time riding. Since I ride every day and often get up to 100 miles a day PLP probably represents less than 5% of my riding time.

I count moving time in hours and only watch miles for oil changes. I carry a hand held GPS wedged between the steering bar and the cowling. That's how I know how much time I'm spending on the bike. My concentration is depleted after an hour of PLP and my bottom is worn out afte two hours on the 4" wide seat.

I usually have a two hour clinic once a week for new riders during the regular rider season and always hit a parking lot when switching between some of my bikes, for instance sidecar which turns to V-strom which leans.

At first I practiced a lot because of feeling unstable on the bike, then because pride demands I ride the bike with some style. After about 40 hours I got addicted to skill so the parking lot is as much fun as riding around, may be more fun because there is less risk.

I think we all do figure eights. The size depends on the bike. For instance I can do a 2 foot by 6 foot figure 8 on my trials bike, and need a bit more room than you to do the same on the sidecar. 15 feet is easy enough to do on most bikes except for longer cruisers and certain sport bikes.

I can do 14 foot figure 8s slow, in first gear as a balancing maneuver but 18' allows more speed, I like the rollercoaster feel, it feels more productive. Plus the parking lot lines are 18' so I don't have to set up cones.

They are much more fun to do gymkhana style as you trail brake through the turn and slam on the gas one your straight again.

At about 12 weeks I started visiting the gymkhana style figure 8 about once a week to see if I was ready to seriously practice that, I'm not yet. Here is a good example of what you are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQUeGlRT ... e[quote]As far as manuevers go I like the police rodeo setups. You can find many on google but the iron cross is a fun one to compete with on times.

Nobody but police get to ride their courses. Nobody else has that many cones, the time to set them up, or the ability to hog a parking lot that way. Motor police courses are intentionally designed to make sure that only motor police can do what motor police do. Instead motor police should compete on courses that allow the public to join the competition on an equal footing. That would interest lots of riders, that would promote practice big time. Go beat a motorcycle cop in a maneuvering competition, how much fun would that be?

I wonder how many hours of PLP the policeman in your video does every week? I wonder what exercises he does, that I haven't discovered yet? I'll never know because he'll never tell me. He might help me stay a beginner for the rest of my days but that's going to be it. Even though tax dollars pay for their training and their riding time, motor police contribute nothing, nada, zip to the motorcycle safety discussion relating to their forte--skills and practice. I have a problem with that.[/quote]

doing something with more speed doesnt mean your doing it right. Also First gear isnt the best gear to be doing those figure 8's in a 14foot box. I use second gear to do that. You have MORE control than you do in first.

[storysunfolding]

Also First gear isnt the best gear to be doing those figure 8's in a 14foot box. I use second gear to do that. You have MORE control than you do in first.

eh, depends on the bike. Due to the SV fuel injection, the strom likes second, but I prefer first on almost all my other bikes.

[beginner]

"Doesn't make a significant difference in safety," okay, so what?

People who take the MSF course should be advised about this.

I was quoting YOU (forgive me if my paraphrasing was inexact), not anything in the BRC programs. You have yet to "prove" this statement to my, or anyone's, satisfaction.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think you should be speaking for what others believe. I will try to find some more evidence about formal training and crash involvement.

I'm done here. I STRONGLY urge everyone to ignore any further "discussion" of the MSF's programs with beginner, since it is obviously a point of vastly different opinion. We must all simply agree to disagree, because it is obvious that neither "side" is going to sway the other...

If nobody mentioned particular training companies by name I wouldn't either. I say ongoing drills and exercises are essential regardless of taking a course. The particular course is not my issue. I like to discuss practice with people who are interested in practice. That discussion is disrupted by motorcycle instructors who insist nobody should practice, or discuss practice, until they first take the instructor's course. I think this is a questionable position. It does help explain why practice is discussed so little.

I've been here before with beginner on another forum.

I have no clue whether I've read comments by you in another forum.

The thread went to over 150 pages, if I'm not mistaken.

Just now I checked the practice discussion you mention. There were two threads. The first one was started by me. In two weeks there were 1,400 posts and 17,000 views before the thread was locked by the forum owner at the insistance of motorcycle instructors. Almost immediately someone else started a thread to continue the conversation. In two more weeks there were 1,800 posts and 20,000 views before that discussion was locked. In both of those I was only one of many contributors.

I'd link to the thread he started, but it has been moved by moderators to "tacky space" and can only be seen by beginner. . .

I checked this also. With my original user name both discussions seem to be there, intact. But when I'm logged off or logged in as a different user the thread started by me has been deleted. The second thread is still there but all my posts are deleted.

Now, given that beginner has remained civil if dogged. I think we ought to give him a chance to remain. I'll also include a warning to him to AVOID discussion of the validity (or lack thereof) of taking the BRC. But, given that in the US, the BRC is pretty much the standard used for "what to practice" that will be difficult. However, as an obviously intelligent adult, I think it can be done.

I think you cross the line when you say that only practice consistant with your preferred training course should be allowed in discussion. Then you play the role of tought police.

[storysunfolding]

I say ongoing drills and exercises are essential regardless of taking a course. The particular course is not my issue. I like to discuss practice with people who are interested in practice. That discussion is disrupted by motorcycle instructors who insist nobody should practice, or discuss practice, until they first take the [training course]. I think this is a questionable position. It does help explain why practice is discussed so little.

Hey, you need to stop putting words in other people's mouths. Everyone can read this thread to see what was and what was not said. No one here has stated that position and if you feel that way then you need to try to get in a nuetral mindset and reread some posts.

There has been a recommendation to take the course so that you aren't teaching yourself bad habits. For instance, I can point out a few bad habits from your picture alone. It's tiny, I bet with bigger pictures or video I could give you more feedback. An instructor, or a qualified mentor, would be able to point those out to you and you would improve as a rider. If you're truly the bees knees, go take the ERC. It's one day on your bike and you will see marked improvements.