HYPERR wrote:You guys are both right but I think are talking about two different things.
You are referring to the technique that people use to match RPMs by remembering how much the RPM increase are in downshifts and blipping the throttle, correct? If so, that technique is only relevant in downshifts.
That is rev matching, yes.
However, you can only do that when using the clutch.
I understand that. But you only use that particular technique when you downshift and I am talking about cluthless upshifts.
And I do fully understand that you were directing your other question to hi-side.
No I was referring to upshifts... Let off the throttle enough to take the pressure off of the dogs, slip it into the next gear, accelerate again...
Wrider
Have owned - 2001 Suzuki Volusia
Current bike - 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
MMI Graduation date January 9th, 2009. Factory Certifications in Suzuki and Yamaha
When clutchless shifting (or any shifting), you do go through a neutral (no gears engaged) or you couldn't shift at all.
Even with a clutch, you can sometimes catch the neutrals.
So while exact rpm matching isn't possible, there is a small period of time when no gears are engaged and the motor is free to speed up or slow down to more closely match rpm. Clutch or not.
boogles the mind why people wanna do things that arnt recommended ie. gear changing with no clutch, then pi.ss and moan when they are unsupported in their endeavors by the majority.
If ya didnt need a clutch then why are they loctaed on the bars and consider an integral part of operating the bikes gear box.
Look in your service manuals...i just did, no where does it say its kool to operate the gears with out the clutch.
If i dropped my push bike from a helicopter 2 miles above the ground I could realistically get 100+mph out of it, should i do it ????? the fact its doable doesnt mean its ok to do
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Clutchless upshifts are used in racing. I do it on my street bike though too and if you know what you're doing its fine and there is no damage at all done. You still need a clutch to downshift, but a slipper clutch is much better.
This like any other advanced skill takes practice and experience to get it right.
I'm fairly certain the manual doesnt say anything about trail braking, sliding the front and/or rear tire, or any of the multitude of other advanced skills, other than perhaps the dire warning, if you do that, you'll fall off and die in a blazing inferno, tax, tags and license not included, your mileage may vary.
I work for a flatbed trucking company, and none of our 850 trucks have snychros in the transmissions except between low range and high on the splitter. The majority of our drivers don't use a clutch to shift up or down. The clutch is used only to disengage the engine while starting or stopping. Once the clutch is engaged, the engine is revved slightly (diesel, not many rpm's to use here), and as the throttle is backed off and the driveline "unloaded", the shift is made to the next higher gear. Its true that the less difference in the speeds of the engine and driveshaft, the quicker and easier the shift is made. Its also true that you need to be right back on the throttle in order for the shift to be smooth.An experienced driver can shift up or down without the clutch, and never grind a gear.
Downshifting, the transmission is pulled from whatever gear its in just as the driveline is again "unloaded", and while its in neutral the engine revs are raised until the gear speeds match and the shift is made. If done correctly, and thats the key, "correctly", there is less wear on the driveline than using a clutch, and less jerking the load. Done incorrectly even with a clutch will accelerate wear on the driveline to the point of failure in a short distance.
That being said, i use the clutch on my bike although there is a point where it will shift just fine without it. I drive my pickup the same way ('76 GMC w/SM465 trans). But, you have to understand the drivetrain on your particular vehicle for it to work. Hope that helps clarify things, and doesn't raise more issues.
According to the Basic Rider Course manual, it is possible to both upshift and downshift without using the clutch. Under the section for broken clutch cable.
If clutchless shifting were such a great and easy thing, they would have taught it during the class.
Mr. Invisible wrote:
If clutchless shifting were such a great and easy thing, they would have taught it during the class.
It's great, but not considered easy, as in a beginner rider skill. Certainly not something they would teach at a BRC. One must learn how to crawl before they start to run(or even walk).
But then I don't tend to use the clutch as a switch which I've noticed is a tendancy around the 'clutchless upshift crowd'.