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Sevulturus wrote:

ZooTech wrote:

oldnslo wrote:You must have said something a Catholic might say so he assumed......

Bingo!

I'd like to know precisely what that is, as I've yet to truely experience any religion. Much of the information I have is gleaned from friends who are catholic and my own readings with are "basic christianity" coupled with a handful of philosophical texts which predate those types of splittings.

I'm honestly trying to learn here, since so many of my arguments are based on what I know, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

What sets Catholics apart from other Christians is the idea that a person's deeds and works can earn them a place in Heaven. Obviously God wants His followers to do good deeds, but He makes it clear that works do not determine your ultimate fate. Only the act of humility before God and asking forgiveness for your sins will secure you a spot in Heaven. Many people take issue with this because they don't think it's "fair", but to argue that point is to impose your opinion of what is fair onto God. There are many things about life that I don't think are "fair", but who am I to say so? So, once again, it comes back to humility....something that is lacking big time in today's society.

sv-wolf wrote:

ZooTech wrote: Whether or not you believe in God, there is still the matter of right and wrong. A woman's "right to choose" begins and ends in the bedroom. To argue otherwise is to reinforce what I said earlier - that abortion is nothing more than a way to make sex as consequence-free as possible. Instead of granting abortions, why not just tie the tubes of the promiscuous woman in question and let her have at it?

I agree, but right and wrong are not fixed, unvarying things, or the private preserve of this or that ideology or religion, or of the state. Nor are they absolute and unrelated to circumstance.

Within any tightly controlled ideological group (like the Catholic Church, in which I had the misfortune to be brought up), the established morality will itself be tied up with very self-justifying and self-interested notions. This is reason enough to argue that this issue must be a matter for wide-ranging public debate. Private and public morality so often get mixed up. Whatever you or I personally believe, public morality must take account of the real world, which means it must take account of the consequences of public policy.

My own view is that right throughout history, women have always sought abortions in large numbers and have been sucessful in finding them in the back streets, with terrible consequences to themselves and to others. Where a need arises, a solution will arise too. Ban abortion and we will be back to those times. To allow that to happen, in my view would be immoral.
.

When dealing with such things as the life of an unborn child, there is only right and wrong. You cannot apply any relativity to the subject, such as what one society feels about it may be right for that society, but wrong for another. Either you're killing a living person or you're not. So your argument amounts to nothing more than justification for the act because "it's gonna happen anyway so why not make it sanitary?" That's akin to handing out condoms to rapists.

Sevulturus wrote:

fireguzzi wrote:

sevulturus wrote:I'm honestly trying to learn here, since so many of my arguments are based on what I know, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Man seeking knowledge learns something new every day
Man seeking wisdom forgets something he has learned every day

Empty phrases that lack both knowledge or wisdom are apparently what I'm seeking. Either that or I'm not smart enough to understand what you've posted. /rolleyes.

No that is not what i was trying to say, I was referring to you as the knowledge seeker in that phrase.
And that is not a bad thing, knowledge seekers are the scientists and doctors and other such successful people in the world. No shame in that.

The wisdom seekers, as the phrase said, tend to forget things that the knowledge seekers strive for. What they, some times inadvertently, seek for is a simple exsistence. Physical work and reward, and such stuff.

Aww what the hell read a book called Sidartha or The Tao Of Pooh if you really want to try and understand my meaning.

And i would just like to say that my original post was just a half drunken observation I wouldnt look into it too much or take offense.

When man cannot explain something he makes a theory of science, or a religious excuse for that thing. This started the first religion, which gave birth to the modern big faith corporations. The Catholics, the Protestants, the Jews, the Muslims, etc... These large faith organizations did what people have needed at various times in history, but were ran by and controlled by man. Each one claims to have its holy men, divine intervention (which mean God controlled the men), and miracles to stake a claim on being the right one and the main one. Not one of these "faith companies" has any proof (other then the testimony of specific faithful individuals). So you either believe the very old stories written by those long dead (pick your faith, they all apply to that idea) or you find one that suits you best. Arbitrary rules and ceremonies are what differentiate most of the faiths.

What is unique though between them? They all think killing is bad when another human is involved. Stealing is bad. Lies are bad. So on. Muslims, Christians and Jews all have the same base belief. After that come ceremonial differences really. Christians are amazing to me really. It is well known that the first version of the New Testament came out long after the death of its founder (Christ = founder?). The whole Gospel of Christ is filled with some of the best lessons on earth, but I still can't shake the feeling that man has had his hand in shaping those texts through the various wars, kings, and dishonest men. In current day terms though the only Muslims or Christians that really scare people are extremist sects (Terrorist, Davidians, Moonies, etc). Most religious people are great folks.

Here are the facts (in my mind) - All religion came from the same base. When man couldn't answer questions or control the mass population, he needed more then "individuals" who would stand up and say "it wrong because I say so" - instead if a great and powerful god said so it had more teeth. If you are fooling around on your wife and I say, "Hey, that's wrong" you might tell me to get bent. Now, if I can convince you that a creator is keeping an eye on you, and he will damn you for cheating on your wife, you might actually change your ways. Not because you are a good man, but because you fear god. Modern man does not have this same issue, but if you were raised as a certain faith, you are likely to have been taught it is simply this way your whole life. Turning your back on this belief will damn you to being separated from your god after death (at the very least).

On to me personally; I am a very spiritual person. I believe in God very much. I pray. I do not attend a church. I do not support any one document of faith as the highest and most correct, although I support them all as documents of learning and spirituality. I call myself Pagan to stick a label on myself (other people seem to need labels to figure out where there fellow humans fit), but in fact I am not even specific to any Pagan, Wicca, or, druid faith. I honor men and honor nature. I do good deeds to help the world be a better place. I thank the maker for the things that have been provided...for the barriers that are removed...for the challenges that teach. And I thank God for you all being here, and I pray that we are all protected and alert on the road.

Everyone really just needs to respect each other. Don't be afraid to hear someone else's ideas. How could god look down on this confusing world and not understand? Could a good god condemn good men for not getting a message when conflicting messages are just as compelling? I can't respect a god that would, so I believe in a god that understands and simply wants us to do the good works here on earth. He doesn't care what building you go to be in communion. He doesn't require you report to certain man in a certain costume to be faithful. Love and not hate are the guidelines.

Sevulturus wrote:I'm honestly trying to learn here, since so many of my arguments are based on what I know, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

Jeff, here's pure personal experience, all philosophy and opinion aside.

As an Air Force officer, I saw what appeared to be the goodness of mankind in the majority of those I had contact with. "Yes Sir" was the common response to most of what I had to say. Keep in mind I had authority over many of them that could make or break their careers. My superior officers also respected me and sought my opinions.

As a Self-employed Garbage man, driving one of my own trucks, for the last 9 1/2 years, I have seen the blackness of the heart of man in the VAST majority of those I come in contact with. Pure experience, nothing more. I have had a person say to me "you are what you do" and point into my truck because she forgot to bring her trash out to the road. I have had a person call me a "low life trash person" because I didn't pick up the mess from her dog-strewn garbage...untied garbage bags and all. I have had a man chase me through the countryside and try to beat me up (unsucessfully) for cutting him off for non-payment of his bill. I am now leaving this business, after 125 people paid their bill late in the month of October, and I am out of money. I have watched my business fold due to undercut pricing from out of town..pricing that won't save each customer enough for one more carton of cigarettes per year.

I could relay hundreds of examples of who man really is underneath...yes, stories of that rated videos in one bag and vacation bible scool supplies in the one next to it from the same house. I understand the well-founded scepticism of non- Christians that is based on observation of hypocritical believers. People will eventually fail, if you are watching them instead of watching God. People have failed me many, many times...God still provides.

The point is, my experience has convinced me beyond any doubt, that man is inherently evil, just like the bible says. That's why Madeline Murry O'hare was able to remove prayer from the schools. After all, what should atheists care about prayer? Nobody ever told them they had to do it, but the right to do it at the beginning of an activity (when we seek the blessing of God on that activity) has been taken from us. Guess what, it doesn't matter, because we pray anyway. You see, the concept if "civil liberty" is the biggest word game of all...freedom without accountability. Only biblical concepts are being challenged, really. Those who don't believe get pretty wound up, and so do those on religious soapboxes. There are, however, many Christians living godly lives, and doing their best to make more Christians. This is the main teaching of Christ. We are to love one another, and show the narrow way to heaven. We get nothing more for this, but a new believer is saved from eternity in Hell. God wants as many of us with him as possible, and believing is the way. Your logical breakdown is actually quite good, Jeff. You do, however, need to insert the variable of redemption, since it is part of the bible plan for salvation. Inserting the ten commandments without it, is lopsided, and will lead to confusion. Once you insert that part (you already alluded to the impossiblility of the sinless man), the way is very clear, indeed. Only a loving God would forgive us, and let us spend eternity with him, and I've see dramatic life change in sincere believers. The Christian is supposed to be concerned about the eternal salvation of others, so saving someone from a burning house would give the opportuinity to glorify God, and present the gospel, if done with the right heart. I like your intense study of this, and just hope you'll do as C.S. Lewis did...study Christ as an Aethiest, and come out of it as a Christian.

That's my experience, and some of what I believe, and why. U2u me if you want some scriptures to look at.

ZooTech wrote:Anyone who attempts to present it to me as some noble movement for women's rights is only fooling themselves, the ACLU, and every other liberal nut-job with an inability to think for themselves.

Bolding mine.

I'd just like to point out that it's possible to engage in a debate without resorting to name-calling.

ronboskz650sr wrote:That's why Madeline Murry O'hare was able to remove prayer from the schools.

You give that dead broad too much credit.

It was the Founding Fathers who acted to keep prayers out of public schools.

Spiff wrote:

ronboskz650sr wrote:That's why Madeline Murry O'hare was able to remove prayer from the schools.

You give that dead broad too much credit.

It was the Founding Fathers who acted to keep prayers out of public schools.

You still haven't read it. Or understood it. This is my last reply to you. I know when I'm wasting time. Have your arguement. Feel free to keep quoting my posts. Merry Christmas.

So I wrote the below, but I hope this isn't taken as disrespect.

ronboskz650sr wrote:

Sevulturus wrote:I'm honestly trying to learn here, since so many of my arguments are based on what I know, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

As an Air Force officer, I saw what appeared to be the goodness of mankind in the majority of those I had contact with.

The military is great place to feel good about your fellow man. You respect the rank and not the man. You follow orders without questions. It is all very organized and predictable. You cannot decide to do it your own way. There are rules of conduct. You play the game respectfully and within the rules of conduct and you will succeed. Those who would be hostile, resistant, or questioning would not be a part of the unit for long. They are punished and retrained.

ronboskz650sr wrote: As a Self-employed Garbage man, driving one of my own trucks, for the last 9 1/2 years, I have seen the blackness of the heart of man in the VAST majority of those I come in contact with.

So out in the real world where people don't have to answer to the captain or the general they don't behave. Well no wonder people seek religion huh? If you can't figure out how to get man to behave and have no power to control it yourself, maybe god can get it done for you? In reality I think we need to shake off the negative and practice the positive. I don't personally know you Ron, but I think you probably act this way anyhow, but you keep the "spin" of your faith in the mix. I thank God for good Christians like you.

ronboskz650sr wrote: I could relay hundreds of examples of who man really is underneath...yes, stories of that rated videos in one bag and vacation bible scool supplies in the one next to it from the same house. I understand the well-founded scepticism of non- Christians that is based on observation of hypocritical believers. People will eventually fail, if you are watching them instead of watching God. People have failed me many, many times...God still provides.

God does not provide - I think. God expects you to do the work. You to make the decisions. By you doing the work and providing for yourself, you are doing God's work. Maybe this is a word game. What I mean to say is you can't (as Frank Burns on M*A*S*H did once to a man who claimed to be Christ) pray for chocolate pudding and then think you have proof there is no God when you don't get the pudding. You can't sit there and expect God to just provide for you if you do nothing to add to this world or glorify good. Good works = good life. Good life does not mean you will enjoy the existence on earth, but it does mean you are adding to the positive in the world - which can only be good. Those who are challenged by life often turn their life to a negative place. They think God turned his back on them, when really they need to strengthen their resolve to be a part of the good team.

ronboskz650sr wrote: I like your intense study of this, and just hope you'll do as C.S. Lewis did...study Christ as an Aethiest, and come out of it as a Christian.

And then after that study as a Christian and come out a lover of the God of all man kind, as I have done. I respect everyone's right to do their own thing and have there own faith, but I still think a "Christian only" God is short sighted and bit cocky. The whole world is full of Buddhists, Muslims, and non-believers who have great humans among their ranks. I don't think God will put them in holding or hell for not accepting the son of god. The bible says this is the case - you are not welcome to join the God party without nod from Jesus. The Jews are the chosen people (some would say) and they are still waiting around for the first arrival. They think their idea is correct and the Christians are praising the wrong guy. So they don't except Christ as a personal savior nor respect the New Testament as true doctrine. Hell bound? No wonder there is war in the world. You really get a Christian mad when you push the existence of their messiah, and the Jews don't like the whole killer of Christ label. I really am confused how anyone could be so bold as to suppose their book is absolutely right and their view of God is the only right one. I find that to be an insult to God.

But again, the above is just me trying to expand on my own faith and how it comes to me. I hope it doesn't offend others, and certainly not Ron.

Merry Chistmas to all.

Spiff wrote:

ZooTech wrote:Anyone who attempts to present it to me as some noble movement for women's rights is only fooling themselves, the ACLU, and every other liberal nut-job with an inability to think for themselves.

Bolding mine.

I'd just like to point out that it's possible to engage in a debate without resorting to name-calling.

I call 'em how I see 'em, Spiffy.

And the ACLU can still kiss my butt.

And Merry Christmas all the same.

Zootech, Ronbo, and Scan thankyou for helping me to understand a little better.

Fireguzzi, I think you mistake my search for understanding as a search for facts.

I approach the world logically because that is how I was raised, and that is how things work in my mind. However I am attempting to expand my horizons and learn new ways of thinking and seeing the world.