MSF or self-learn riding

[beginner]

When I practice I try to do all the following: uturns, slow riding, weaves, swerves both in a straight line and in a turn, quick stops (straight line and in a curve), decreasing radius turns, brake then evade (both full stop and rolling), trail braking (figure 8 or speed circle), 130 degree starts from a stop in both directions. I don't record myself riding, I practice enough with friends at the same level that can give me constructive feedback. They can give me better feedback than a 3 inch lcd screen where I go in and out of the shot. Between setup and break down this takes about 30-45 minutes. When we setup courses, we normally use ones like David Houghe's or the motormen courses (not the guy, the police riders...) and spend about an hour between setup and breakdown.

My habit is different. I was practicing every day, usually for an hour and usually that hour was divided into several sessions. I never tried to do everything every day.

I spend the most time on the exercises that seem the most productive or where I seem to have the least amount of proficiency or where there seems to be the most progress. If an exercise gets stale I might try to invent something to take it's place or drop it for a while and work on other things were there is more progress. I tended to emphasize turning because that matters on the off-road terrain I ride for transportation around the farm.

It seemed that noticable progress came about every 2 weeks so I needed to be patient in the intervals.

The most important breakthrough of the summer was understanding the relationship between upper body weight and the lean of the bike. May be the second most important was the relationship between upper body weight and rear wheel traction. The first came at about 12 weeks, the second around 24 weeks. I went looking online for discussion or writing about those and have found nothing so far except mention of counterbalancing as a technique for slow speed turns. That's surprising. Use of upperbody weight seems to be a general principle. It could be viewed as another one of the controls. Regardless, upper body weight is having an influence every moment the kick stand is up and the bike is moving. I try to understand that influence and make sure it's productive and not counter productive.

Another important discovery of the summer is warming up to ride. I was doing it but not realizing all the benefits. I head straight for the parking lot on the first ride of the day and drop into a figure 8 and do it until it's as smooth as the day before. That usually takes 15 minutes. I've noticed in crash studies that a lot of crashes happen close to home in the early minutes of a ride. Good advice might be to spend those early vulnerable minutes of a ride in a parking lot instead of in traffic.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Beginner, I've read your stuff all over the web (in at least 3 other forums) and your tone is always the same. Might I ask one question to help the motorcycling community understand where you're coming from?

How old are you? Your tone seems to be very young and angry that no one respects your ideas. I think this little piece of demographic information will help us help you.

Thanks in advance.

(In the spirit of fairness, I'm 45 and bemused.)

[Nalian]

I'm 29 and I'm just confused. I have no idea what beginner's point is or what the purpose of this thread is after 6 pages. All I have gotten from this is:

beginner feels the MSF is insufficient for being allowed on the road.
beginner feels that the MSF does an insufficient job of telling people they need to practice.
beginner has not taken the MSF course.
beginner does a lot of his own PLP every day.

What am I supposed to get out of this? What is the point of this thread? What message is it, beginner, that you're trying to convey? I've really tried to understand what the point is that you're trying to make - but I don't see it. Do you want to have a discussion about what practicing is great? Do you want people to stop taking the MSF/people to stop saying the MSF is a good thing? What is it you're looking for? What discussion is it that you're trying to have that we're all apparently failing to grasp?

Of course, I'm also assuming you don't just want to argue with people about the MSF. If I'm wrong, please correct me here.

[beginner]

Beginner, I've read your stuff all over the web (in at least 3 other forums) and your tone is always the same. Might I ask one question to help the motorcycling community understand where you're coming from?

How old are you? Your tone seems to be very young and angry that no one respects your ideas. I think this little piece of demographic information will help us help you.

Thanks in advance.

(In the spirit of fairness, I'm 45 and bemused.)

Not long after I started riding I searched message boards looking for discussion of practice with people who practice. Any time someone tries to start that discussion it is besieged by motorcycle instructors insisting that before there can be any more discussion everyone must take the instructor's course to guard against practice not approved by the instructor.

The view of these instructors seems to be there are two kinds of riders, the ones who have taken the instructor's course and the ones who haven't and woe to the one's who haven't. I also see two kinds of riders, the ones who practice and the ones who don't.

There does not need to be a conflict between these points of view. They could coexist. But the motorcycle instructors won't have it that way. Anyone who does not strictly recite the instructor's dogma is ridiculed, mocked, or disrespected, until they disappear. If they don't disappear voluntarily the instructors pressure the forum owner to ban them.

You should consider this might not be the best way to make riders safer. Perhaps different schools of thought should be respected so that new ideas have a chance to come up (or old ideas that might be neglected).

I might remember you from past communication. I seem to recall you might be a motorcycle instructor. I also seem to remember confiding something to you in a PM and you used that to hold me up for ridicule. Excuse me if I've got you confused with someone else.

[storysunfolding]

Don't worry- no one can pressure Mike into anything.

Cap- given the response I'm going to guess 16 or 17. Between his flip flopping, admitting to things he's condemned and general confrontational manner I'm probably being nice by going that high.

[beginner]

I'm 29 and I'm just confused. I have no idea what beginner's point is or what the purpose of this thread is after 6 pages. All I have gotten from this is:

beginner feels the MSF is insufficient for being allowed on the road.
beginner feels that the MSF does an insufficient job of telling people they need to practice.
beginner has not taken the MSF course.
beginner does a lot of his own PLP every day.

What am I supposed to get out of this? What is the point of this thread? What message is it, beginner, that you're trying to convey? I've really tried to understand what the point is that you're trying to make - but I don't see it. Do you want to have a discussion about what practicing is great? Do you want people to stop taking the MSF/people to stop saying the MSF is a good thing? What is it you're looking for? What discussion is it that you're trying to have that we're all apparently failing to grasp?

Of course, I'm also assuming you don't just want to argue with people about the MSF. If I'm wrong, please correct me here.

What I've been looking for, for the past 6 months, is discussion of practice with people who practice, meaning drills and exercises with repetitions space close in time. The discussion is always disrupted by motorcycle instructors promoting their course. It would be helpful if the sponsor would advise their instructors they shouldn't do that.

EDIT: If motorcycle instructors contributed positively to practice discussions it would be a fine thing. They could talk about their own practice and hold it up as an example to follow. That might get more people spending more time practicing and that could only be good for safety.

[Johnj]

Ok I'm not trying to be flippant or anything. Please lock this thing.

[storysunfolding]

That's strange. I've talked about my practice habits. I've talked about how I run a new rider practice clinic every week during the main riding season (single digits has most people's bike's away for the winter here). I've talked about how my riding group has a big group practice session once a month. I've listed numerous exercises involving cornering, which are where most single vehicle rider fatalities occur, and never had you ask about them.

However, I've also pointed out the flaws in your attack on a training program that you've never taken or know anything about. I've pointed out your duplicity in demonizing practicing on the road, yet admitting to doing it. I've also pointed out that all your videos are filled with bad riding habits that would have been corrected early had you taken any riding course, not necessarily one that I teach. Instead, as Lionlady pointed out, your continual practice of bad habits is perfecting poor technique.

For someone trying to be a lifelong learner, you're getting off to a shaky start. Instructors aren't attacking you simply for having not taken our course nor are we simply trying to promote our course. In case you haven't heard, there's commonly a 4-5 month waiting period to get into a MSF course. It's not like we need to scrap up new demand. No, the reason you get such negative feedback on this and every forum you visit is because of your confrontational attitude and a seemingly ingrained insistence that your method is the only correct way to become a better rider.

+1 to johnj. We're just going in circles

[beginner]

I found this exercise described on another website I'm going to try when the pavement is dry. Put the front wheel on a curb and the rear wheel in the gutter and ride forward. Best done when the pavement is wet (I would guess so the rear wheel doesn't have enough traction to climb the curb).

I'm looking for exercises to learn to balance the bike when is not moving. One I've heard described but haven't been able to do is lean the front tire against a wall or tree, with power I imagine, and practice balance from that position. I'm thinking about an apparatus or fixture I can set up that might work better. It's occuring to me I can try the exercise with a bicycle first and test any apparatus with a bicycle.

Something I'd like to be able to do is balance longer with the steering against the stops. I'm beginning to suspect that bike geometry can make it harder or easier. I can do circles easily with the wheel turned to a fraction of an inch from the stop but when it's locked the bike immidiately falls inward. Shifting body weight doesn't help. Any increase in power either does nothing or pushes the bike out of the turn. It may just be a balance aptitude thing that's only going to come with time. Here is a video of someone who says he's doing full lock figure 8s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P8NgWlcMVA

The project i'm looking forward to the most is getting better at slipping the rear tire, which came up in the last week of the season. What's startling is I can increase slip in the rear with subtle increases in power or slight weight shifts or a combination. I suspect some of the reported turning crashes relate to this. Learning about slip was one of the unexpected payoffs of so much time on figure 8s. I found this demonstration of slip control. At his speed and skill it's easy to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KycZk1M7 ... annel_page

[Nalian]

What I've been looking for, for the past 6 months, is discussion of practice with people who practice, meaning drills and exercises with repetitions space close in time. The discussion is always disrupted by motorcycle instructors promoting their course. It would be helpful if the sponsor would advise their instructors they shouldn't do that.

EDIT: If motorcycle instructors contributed positively to practice discussions it would be a fine thing. They could talk about their own practice and hold it up as an example to follow. That might get more people spending more time practicing and that could only be good for safety.

If this is truly the discourse you're looking for, I'd suggest you start a new topic called something like "PLP - what do you like to practice?" and just post up some of the things you like to practice and why. Much like your recent post. This thread is dead - anyone who came to it looking to do what you described above wouldn't find it, and that discussion won't happen here.

I don't think that you should worry about whether or not someone says to go take the MSF - even people who have taken the MSF like PLP, and as others have said, regularly hold their own practices. I think discussions about the MSF compliment a thread like this - neither holds exclusivity.