Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:55 am
And for sport, apparently.but we're supposed to kill animals other than for reasons of food and protection
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My Politically Correct Seasons Greetings
Page 10 of 25
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:00 am
And when you so enthusiastically proclaim Merry Christmas to others (as you have done often in this thread), you are wishing ... what, exactly?ZooTech wrote:He would love the ACLU, just as He taught "love thine enemy". Good thing for believers I am not Jesus.Spiff wrote:And a P.S. to ZooTech: WWJD?
Are you wishing that people celebrate the birth of Jesus because his teachings were wise and that we would be wise to follow them?
When I wish people Merry Christmas, that's the thought I have in mind.
I'm not holding my breath, though.
P.S. And like Nibblet99, I also believe that life is full of grey areas. I wish it were not -- life would be much simpler then. But alas, it is not.
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:19 am
Personally, I'm not sure that the life of one species IS any more or less important than that of any other. I think it is all life - very vulnerable and always unique.CNF2002 wrote:We're not supposed to kill our own young...we have a strong feeling about it because it just feels unnatural. We need to protect our children at all costs, not kill them if they are inconvenient.whats the difference between aborting a foetus, and swatting a fly
There are alot of issues I have with abortion, one being the killing of life and the other being that it takes two to make a child.
Wasnt this post about xmas?
I agree that we are programmed to have a special set of feelings for our own species and our own young in particular. But I don't think we are determined by our genentic programming. We exercise our rational and moral faculties, have culturally derived ideas and very messy emotional lives. And all these go into the melting pot of our decision making.
One point that interests me is that Nature does not protect our unborn children 'at all costs'. If a mother experiences stress of is malnourished, her body will often reabsorb a young foetus even after it has begun to develop. Miscarriages are common. The body will often destroy a developing infant to protect the mother.
Another is that there are no simple moral formulae you can apply to this issue. What do you say to say to a pregant woman who has been severely traumatised by a brutal rape. What do you say to a mother whose unborn child is severely deformed. What do you say to a mother whose life is threated if the pregnancy goes to term. What do you say to a pregnant woman who has severe learning difficulties. What do you say when another child would mean that a family could no longer support its children. What do you say to a thirteen year old mum who has been rejected by her family (it happens, I see it all the time in my job).
Telling her she must respect the life of the unborn child at all costs, period, just sounds arrogant to me. And I think it is just lazy thinking. It allows us to experience moral righteousness at little cost to ourselves but possible serious consequences to others. It's not that I think the issue about protecting the life of the unborn child is not important. It's just that the issue is more detailed than that.
I agree Nibblers, shades of grey everywhere.
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:05 pm
First off, I don't celebrate the birth of the baby...I celebrate the death of the man. After all, that was the sacrifice He made to pay for my sins.Spiff wrote:And when you so enthusiastically proclaim Merry Christmas to others (as you have done often in this thread), you are wishing ... what, exactly?
Are you wishing that people celebrate the birth of Jesus because his teachings were wise and that we would be wise to follow them?
As for wishing Merry Christmas, I happen to be a Christian, it's my holiday, I think it's a good one, and I'd like to share the joy with anyone I meet. Christmas is not a holiday of exclusivity, though some choose to back away from it. It just seems that as we Christians are expected to be more and more "tolerant", the rest of the world uses it as a way to chase us into obscurity. Our nation was founded on Christian beliefs, and we welcome believers of all types (as well as non-believers) into our country to exercise the freedom of worship our military men and women fight to protect. In return these newcomers (as well as liberal sympathizers) do indeed worship as they choose, all the while lodging complaints about Christian symbols and messages they come across, especially during our holidays. As a Christian, I am not allowed to be intolerant - lest someone throw a "WWJD" bracelet at me. Jews, Muslims, atheists, and anyone else, on the other hand, can whine and complain about Christmas trees in classrooms, or nativity scenes on the lawns of government buildings. If I were to complain that Kosher meals are offered at public (state run) schools, I would be labeled a hate-monger. Yet if my daughter is caught praying before a meal, I'm sure I'd never hear the end of it.
Oh well...no matter...cuz this all plays right in to prophesy and is, therefore, the will of God. So I actually take a certain amount of comfort, as strange as that sounds, observing the state of affairs in our society. With every news story, every Middle-East update, and every attack on President Bush from the DNC or the liberal media (redundant?), I can see His plan unfolding. And even though I get frustrated from time to time with the obvious media bias and the suppression of the truth, He does not.
So Happy Ramahanu-KwanzMas, everyone!!!
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:53 pm
Obviously, I agree with Zoo. Still, I want to make one more statement that may offend, if you will let it.
I believe it is unwise to claim Christianity in an attempt to appear tolerant and simultaneously endorse the ACLU as Spiff has done. The ACLU, is in opposition to Biblical priciples from prayer to homosexuality, and You just can't believe both ways. Pick a side spiff.
BTW, Jesus DID NOT tolerate everything. Again, simply reading the bible will reveal this. It's very nice and pie-in-the-sky to expect Christians to exhibit super-human tolerance of everybody, no matter what. The simple fact is, we are also human. We will fail, just like everyone else. We have the same faults to overcome as everyone else. We believe what we believe to be truth, just like everyone else. Many of us choose this truth after significant searching for it, without knowing about it first. Others come to it a diffferent way. None who find it can, in good conscience endorse the ACLU. If you think otherwise, you need to re-read your bible, and reevaluate why you have chosen to only believe parts of it, ignoring the rest. It is either God's word, or it isn't...regardless of what you believe! Ask any Christian or Aethiest if the bible is God's word. There are only two possible answers. Then decide once and for all which way you are going to go. Sometimes I hate myself for coming back to this thread, but good grief. Zoo, I totally get the sarcasm of the "love your enemy" pun. The ACLU is the enemy of Christ, for sure.
As for Christmas...It was originally "Yuletide", and a pagan free-for all. Yes, it's true...but when it was re-instituted in this new world, and re-named Christmas, it was re-named for a reason...to lend credibiity to a new holiday in a new country, while maintaining respectability in victorian society. The birth of Christ became the reason for Christians to have a celebration at the same time of year as everyone else...during the dead of winter when Hope needed a recharge. Zoo knows this, I know this, all educated Christians know this. When you make a new holiday in a country founded on Christian principles, and name it after Christ, you'd think the most jaded non-believers would see the intent.
It doesn't matter. I'm sure Zoo will agree with this...one of the most frustrating realities of believing what we believe is the knowledge that some will never believe it. That makes us sad, because we really believe it, and that means sad consequences for those who don't (I know, if we're right.) We are only arguing because we care, not because we need to win the argument. It's critical to us that the whole picture is revealed, especially when confusion creeps in. The Devil is really good at "truth" that is almost right. The more you hear it, the more right it sounds. That's why people aren't charitable thinking the Bible says "God helps those who help themselves." It doesn't. It does say "let he who will not work, not eat." Pretty different!
That's why we keep trying..doesn't it seem like we'd give up by now, otherwise? Really, what do we have to gain by proclaiming Jesus as Lord on a motorcycle website? Nothing more thasn anywhere else we do it. It's just what we do. It's important that we remain calm, too. I think we basically do, and I know I have retracted anything that gets too heated for the reader, even if it wasn't intended that way. We blow it, we ask forgiveness...pretty simple. Other times we simply fade away for awhile, until we get control of ourselves. Maybe everyone who throws insults on purpose could give that a try. Merry Christmas!
I believe it is unwise to claim Christianity in an attempt to appear tolerant and simultaneously endorse the ACLU as Spiff has done. The ACLU, is in opposition to Biblical priciples from prayer to homosexuality, and You just can't believe both ways. Pick a side spiff.
BTW, Jesus DID NOT tolerate everything. Again, simply reading the bible will reveal this. It's very nice and pie-in-the-sky to expect Christians to exhibit super-human tolerance of everybody, no matter what. The simple fact is, we are also human. We will fail, just like everyone else. We have the same faults to overcome as everyone else. We believe what we believe to be truth, just like everyone else. Many of us choose this truth after significant searching for it, without knowing about it first. Others come to it a diffferent way. None who find it can, in good conscience endorse the ACLU. If you think otherwise, you need to re-read your bible, and reevaluate why you have chosen to only believe parts of it, ignoring the rest. It is either God's word, or it isn't...regardless of what you believe! Ask any Christian or Aethiest if the bible is God's word. There are only two possible answers. Then decide once and for all which way you are going to go. Sometimes I hate myself for coming back to this thread, but good grief. Zoo, I totally get the sarcasm of the "love your enemy" pun. The ACLU is the enemy of Christ, for sure.
As for Christmas...It was originally "Yuletide", and a pagan free-for all. Yes, it's true...but when it was re-instituted in this new world, and re-named Christmas, it was re-named for a reason...to lend credibiity to a new holiday in a new country, while maintaining respectability in victorian society. The birth of Christ became the reason for Christians to have a celebration at the same time of year as everyone else...during the dead of winter when Hope needed a recharge. Zoo knows this, I know this, all educated Christians know this. When you make a new holiday in a country founded on Christian principles, and name it after Christ, you'd think the most jaded non-believers would see the intent.
It doesn't matter. I'm sure Zoo will agree with this...one of the most frustrating realities of believing what we believe is the knowledge that some will never believe it. That makes us sad, because we really believe it, and that means sad consequences for those who don't (I know, if we're right.) We are only arguing because we care, not because we need to win the argument. It's critical to us that the whole picture is revealed, especially when confusion creeps in. The Devil is really good at "truth" that is almost right. The more you hear it, the more right it sounds. That's why people aren't charitable thinking the Bible says "God helps those who help themselves." It doesn't. It does say "let he who will not work, not eat." Pretty different!
That's why we keep trying..doesn't it seem like we'd give up by now, otherwise? Really, what do we have to gain by proclaiming Jesus as Lord on a motorcycle website? Nothing more thasn anywhere else we do it. It's just what we do. It's important that we remain calm, too. I think we basically do, and I know I have retracted anything that gets too heated for the reader, even if it wasn't intended that way. We blow it, we ask forgiveness...pretty simple. Other times we simply fade away for awhile, until we get control of ourselves. Maybe everyone who throws insults on purpose could give that a try. Merry Christmas!
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:02 am
ronboskz650sr: Well put 
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:55 pm
I'm pretty sure that I'm going to have some amount of regret with responding to this thread, but I just feel compelled to speak up. I'm normally a bit standoffish with the religious issues, but there is such a great deal of disrespect coming from Zoo and even Ron to an extent. You're so arrogant to think that Christianity is the only way. The judgmental way that you view the "non-believers" is really sad. Very tiny-minded. And Christians should learn to tolerate others - I've had to tolerate Christians long enough in my life.
What I would like to know is how a woman can be judged for ending a pregnancy when there are so many people in the world scientifically creating a pregnancy. No wait - not just a pregnancy with one fetus, but let's go for 8 fetuses because, by golly, these procedures are expensive, and it's okay if we get all 8 because the good Lord will of course provide for us. If he doesn't I'm sure the good tax payers will, as well as some really nifty corporations like Wal-Mart, cuz' gosh darn it, there's just nothing better than rural, white, uber-Christian families "creating" life at their neighborhood fertility clinic. TALK ABOUT SELFISH!
I had an abortion when I was 19. And yes it was from unprotected sex. I have had unprotected sex 4 times in my life, and each time resulted in a pregnancy. Where some couples have an impossible time conceiving, Scan and I have the exact opposite situation. I'm not going to share the process I had to go through to make that decision - I don't feel I have to. I made a sound choice then, based on many, many factors, and I stand by it. Was it easy? Of course not. It was a very painful experience both physically and emotionally, and I spent much time mourning the loss of that life. You think we're all out here just gettin' knocked up for kicks? Not quite. (and by the way, Zoo - you'd be surprised by how many pregnancies are the result of date rape - but I'm sure that's somehow the woman's fault as well?)
When I was 25 years old Scan and I decided to quit using birth control (hey, another way we all play God), so that we could start a family. Yippee, I became pregnant on the first try, but that pregnancy resulted in a miscarriage when I was at about 15 weeks. Since I was into my second trimester, the doctor wanted to do a D&C (a nice way to say "abortion" when its result is due to a miscarriage - oh, and you get to be put under anesthesia for a D&C where with an abortion you remain awake). And I can say this from my perspective - each experience was just as painful as the other. In some differing ways, but with the same intensity. I just knew that it wasn't time for either life to begin; neither the life that I ended, nor the one that nature ended.
As some of you know, I now have two children. They were meant to be here with us at this time. That is how Karma really works. We're given the lessons that we need at the time that we need them. This is what God provides us. How we conduct ourselves while engaged in these lessons is the big test. What do we take away from the experiences that are offered to us. Some folks need to learn their lessons over and over again. Some others "get it" and are able to move on to a higher plane. Whether we alter our own paths, or some other influence does it for us, I believe there is always a divine purpose in our encounters - no matter how big or small.
I can't even imagine where all this puts me in the eyes of some of you. But it's all okay. I know where I sit with God. I was created by God for a very specific purpose, just like all living creatures on Earth. And I don't question - I just take each step with care and seek guidance for the journey.
And I know where I sit with the holidays too. It's such a reflective time of the year. A time to slow down. A time to share celebrations with others. I woke up at 4:00 on the morning of the 22nd (the first morning after the Solstice). I decided to stay up until sunrise, and it was (as usual) well worth it. What a gift! Of course every day is a blessing, but the first dawn after the Winter Solstice is especially beautiful. I think of what ancient peoples must have thought when the sky continually grew dark, but then, upon their many prayers and rituals, the sun would become gradually stronger. They must have felt so blessed - well, they were. As are we.
Whatever your religion or life preference - whether you're this color or that - whether you're hetero or gay or all-ways - just enjoy your holiday celebrations and rituals. If it makes sense to you and makes you feel good, then just feel good about it. But if you use the holidays as a way to bash the beliefs of others, then your religion (or maybe just the way you interpret your religion) pretty much sucks.
Happy Holidays!!
Cheers,
Loonette
What I would like to know is how a woman can be judged for ending a pregnancy when there are so many people in the world scientifically creating a pregnancy. No wait - not just a pregnancy with one fetus, but let's go for 8 fetuses because, by golly, these procedures are expensive, and it's okay if we get all 8 because the good Lord will of course provide for us. If he doesn't I'm sure the good tax payers will, as well as some really nifty corporations like Wal-Mart, cuz' gosh darn it, there's just nothing better than rural, white, uber-Christian families "creating" life at their neighborhood fertility clinic. TALK ABOUT SELFISH!
I had an abortion when I was 19. And yes it was from unprotected sex. I have had unprotected sex 4 times in my life, and each time resulted in a pregnancy. Where some couples have an impossible time conceiving, Scan and I have the exact opposite situation. I'm not going to share the process I had to go through to make that decision - I don't feel I have to. I made a sound choice then, based on many, many factors, and I stand by it. Was it easy? Of course not. It was a very painful experience both physically and emotionally, and I spent much time mourning the loss of that life. You think we're all out here just gettin' knocked up for kicks? Not quite. (and by the way, Zoo - you'd be surprised by how many pregnancies are the result of date rape - but I'm sure that's somehow the woman's fault as well?)
When I was 25 years old Scan and I decided to quit using birth control (hey, another way we all play God), so that we could start a family. Yippee, I became pregnant on the first try, but that pregnancy resulted in a miscarriage when I was at about 15 weeks. Since I was into my second trimester, the doctor wanted to do a D&C (a nice way to say "abortion" when its result is due to a miscarriage - oh, and you get to be put under anesthesia for a D&C where with an abortion you remain awake). And I can say this from my perspective - each experience was just as painful as the other. In some differing ways, but with the same intensity. I just knew that it wasn't time for either life to begin; neither the life that I ended, nor the one that nature ended.
As some of you know, I now have two children. They were meant to be here with us at this time. That is how Karma really works. We're given the lessons that we need at the time that we need them. This is what God provides us. How we conduct ourselves while engaged in these lessons is the big test. What do we take away from the experiences that are offered to us. Some folks need to learn their lessons over and over again. Some others "get it" and are able to move on to a higher plane. Whether we alter our own paths, or some other influence does it for us, I believe there is always a divine purpose in our encounters - no matter how big or small.
I can't even imagine where all this puts me in the eyes of some of you. But it's all okay. I know where I sit with God. I was created by God for a very specific purpose, just like all living creatures on Earth. And I don't question - I just take each step with care and seek guidance for the journey.
And I know where I sit with the holidays too. It's such a reflective time of the year. A time to slow down. A time to share celebrations with others. I woke up at 4:00 on the morning of the 22nd (the first morning after the Solstice). I decided to stay up until sunrise, and it was (as usual) well worth it. What a gift! Of course every day is a blessing, but the first dawn after the Winter Solstice is especially beautiful. I think of what ancient peoples must have thought when the sky continually grew dark, but then, upon their many prayers and rituals, the sun would become gradually stronger. They must have felt so blessed - well, they were. As are we.
Whatever your religion or life preference - whether you're this color or that - whether you're hetero or gay or all-ways - just enjoy your holiday celebrations and rituals. If it makes sense to you and makes you feel good, then just feel good about it. But if you use the holidays as a way to bash the beliefs of others, then your religion (or maybe just the way you interpret your religion) pretty much sucks.
Happy Holidays!!
Cheers,
Loonette
Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:17 pm
Here you go, Loonette. This is the same sunrise you were looking at that morning but taken from my truck along the side of an empty hiway up here.
For whatever it's worth...... enjoy....
For whatever it's worth...... enjoy....
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:55 am
Thanks for the beautiful pic, Buzz. It's fun to imagine just how many people are viewing something at the same time (or at least in the same frame of mind - time zones are always a bugger).
Cheers,
Loonette
Cheers,
Loonette
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:33 am
how in the hell did men ever get to decide whether a woman can have an abortion or not.how much time and money has been spent on Rowe vs Wade and the political stooges professing to be pro or con to get votes.