Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water cool

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Gummiente
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Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water cool

#1 Unread post by Gummiente » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:54 pm

Liquid Cooled Motor is introduced on the 2014 touring models. FINALLY! :kicking:
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over

#2 Unread post by ceemes » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:13 am

Soooo......kickin' n screamin', HD was finally dragged into the later part of the 20th Century. :D
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over

#3 Unread post by Gummiente » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:21 am

ceemes wrote:Soooo......kickin' n screamin', HD was finally dragged into the later part of the 20th Century. :D
Yeah, because the three disc ABS brakes, fly by wire throttle, EFI, electronic ignition, electronic gauges, cruise control, 6-speed trans, etc, etc, are so archaic that they needed to do something to bring the bikes out of the 50's.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over

#4 Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:38 pm

Ok, all the new 2014's Harley-Davidson's are now up. It takes 20-30 minutes to put up each one (As I just don't copy and paste, but create a unique page for each and everyone loaded with custom information and photos).

What I'd like to see is an engine update for the Sportsters (both 883 and 1200), and for whatever reason, the 110 CVO engine's didn't get updated (usually they are the first ones to get updated... so maybe we are seeing a technological ceiling limit here for the 110?). Also about 5 models, including the newish Harley-Davidson FXS Blackline isn't on the lineup anymore... interesting as it was a aimed at Victory sales.

My guess for the water cooling was H-D engine (as we all knew they would eventually) didn't pass air quality standards and/or as we have seen, there was too much of a warranty issue with the rear cylinder getting too hot.

Quite a few updates overall though.

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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#5 Unread post by jstark47 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:37 pm

Makes sense. First BMW ("wasserboxer" motor in the 2013 1/2 R1200GS), now Harley-Davidson.

Hell, IMO the world ended in 2009 when the Triumph Bonnevilles had to go to FI. This is just the after shock! :mrgreen:
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#6 Unread post by storysunfolding » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:43 am

Anyone have a picture showing the radiator?
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over

#7 Unread post by Wrider » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:29 am

Gummiente wrote:
ceemes wrote:Soooo......kickin' n screamin', HD was finally dragged into the later part of the 20th Century. :D
Yeah, because the three disc ABS brakes, fly by wire throttle, EFI, electronic ignition, electronic gauges, cruise control, 6-speed trans, etc, etc, are so archaic that they needed to do something to bring the bikes out of the 50's.
I have to point out that when you have the same basics in every motorcycle you make, it's pretty easy to keep up with the rest of the pack that had it 10 years before.

They're no longer the archaic things they once were, but only to a point.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#8 Unread post by Gummiente » Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:30 am

Wrider wrote:I have to point out that when you have the same basics in every motorcycle you make, it's pretty easy to keep up with the rest of the pack that had it 10 years before.
Harley was the first manufacturer to implement EFI across its entire lineup. But which major manufacturer had fly-by-wire throttle before HD, 'cause I'm drawing a blank on that one. And a quick perusal of 2014 big touring rigs from other manufacturers shows a mixed bag of dry sumps, belt drives, ar cooling, 5 speeds, optional ABS, and so on.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#9 Unread post by HYPERR » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:09 pm

Gummiente wrote:
Harley was the first manufacturer to implement EFI across its entire lineup
The only reason why bike manufacturer went to EFI was to meet emission standard. It would make sense that HD was the first to go that route as big air cooled twins are one of the hardest engines to meet emission standards with.

So the fact that a manufacturer was the first to go EFI across the line does not mean they were the most advanced, in fact the opposite may be true. The longer you could hold off EFI and still meet emission standards would take more skills. For example Honda was the last automaker to go to EFI as it was the only car manufacturer that could meet emissions with a carburator.

That said, bikes are generations behind cars when it comes to technology. Most of the stuff that is considered cutting edge on bikes have been around forever on cars.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#10 Unread post by Gummiente » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:54 pm

HYPERR wrote:The only reason why bike manufacturer went to EFI was to meet emission standard. It would make sense that HD was the first to go that route as big air cooled twins are one of the hardest engines to meet emission standards with.

So the fact that a manufacturer was the first to go EFI across the line does not mean they were the most advanced, in fact the opposite may be true. The longer you could hold off EFI and still meet emission standards would take more skills. For example Honda was the last automaker to go to EFI as it was the only car manufacturer that could meet emissions with a carburator.
I didn't claim HD was the most advanced, I'm trying to point out that they do have current technology on their bikes. And it's no big secret about the ever tightening noose of emissions, there are very few air cooled motors left out there that haven't left carburetors behind for more efficient EFI. Even Ural has finally thrown in the towel and will have EFI on all models for 2014. HD could have held out a few more years, too, but chose to accept fate (well, the fate as dictated by EPA, anyway) and undergo the retooling and expense when there was still time left on the clock. Royal Enfield did the same thing a few years ago, too, when they entered the global market once again.

I can't help but be reminded of a conversation I had with a writer for a motorcycle magazine at a Ural rally a few years ago. He was a pretentious twit who spent a lot of time loudly trashing motorcycles by make and model because they were inferior in his eyes. When he inevitably got to HD and started spouting off the same old clichés, I interrupted and politely rambled off the same list I did earlier in this thread. It caught him off guard and he fumbled for a bit before he shot back with "Yeah, well, they only put the fly-by-wire throttle on there to hide all the ugly cables on the handlebars".
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#11 Unread post by Wrider » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:13 pm

I believe the first fly by wire was on the 06 R6, followed by the 07 R1.

Again, it's easy to implement something across an entire lineup when everything is run on the same engine, transmission, etc.

I'm not attacking HD, I'm really not, but it's not necessary to defend something every time someone jokes about them being old fashioned. They own a huge part of the international market share, they hold their own, but the basic look/feel/persona hasn't changed since the 40s, so we joke about them being ancient technology.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#12 Unread post by Grey Thumper » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:47 am

Isn't it just the two Electra Glide models that get the water-cooled (well, partially water-cooled) engine. Interestingly, water-cooling isn't even mentioned in the press notes http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcyc ... aGlide.htm
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#13 Unread post by Gummiente » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:35 am

Wrider wrote:but it's not necessary to defend something every time someone jokes about them being old fashioned.
Nor is it necessary to bring out the same old "jokes" every time the brand is discussed. "Persona, look and feel" are separate topics from "current technology".
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#14 Unread post by Gummiente » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:44 am

Grey Thumper wrote:Isn't it just the two Electra Glide models that get the water-cooled (well, partially water-cooled) engine. Interestingly, water-cooling isn't even mentioned in the press notes http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcyc ... aGlide.htm
They certainly have seemed to downplay the water cooling for some reason. They've been advertising 8 bikes under the "Project Mount Rushmore" banner, which focuses on how they were built with "unprecedented" customer input, so you would think a significant change like water cooling (okay, partial water cooling) would be front and centre in all the hype.

I'm really curious to see how well it works and what, if any, long term maintenance or reliability issues will arise. If they can pass the next hike in emissions standards with this setup, it will be an impressive feat, but I'm still hoping for a bored out V-Rod motor in a Road Glide chassis to appear some day.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#15 Unread post by BobK » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:49 am

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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#16 Unread post by Johnj » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:03 pm

Ha ha ha ha
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#17 Unread post by HYPERR » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:42 pm

Gummiente wrote:
They certainly have seemed to downplay the water cooling for some reason
It's not something they wanted to do but was forced to do.

Definitely there's a certain charm to air cooled engines. I have three of them in my garage right now, and have owned others in the past. :kicking:
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#18 Unread post by Grey Thumper » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:02 pm

HYPERR wrote:
Gummiente wrote:
They certainly have seemed to downplay the water cooling for some reason
It's not something they wanted to do but was forced to do.

Definitely there's a certain charm to air cooled engines. I have three of them in my garage right now, and have owned others in the past. :kicking:
Same downplaying with BMW and its new "precision-cooled" boxer engine. Gotta find a phrase to appease both the traditionalists and potential new buyers (H-D calls it "twin cooling" IIRC). The radiator design looks pretty awful though. They were much more successful (and subtle) with the V-Rod's radiators. I wonder how this engine will be used in Dynas, Softails, etc.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#19 Unread post by Wrider » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:12 am

Gummiente wrote:
Grey Thumper wrote: I'm really curious to see how well it works and what, if any, long term maintenance or reliability issues will arise. If they can pass the next hike in emissions standards with this setup, it will be an impressive feat, but I'm still hoping for a bored out V-Rod motor in a Road Glide chassis to appear some day.
I'm with you on curiosity as to how well the partial cooling will fare in the future. I'm thinking that eventually the cylinders will get a little bigger but the pistons will stay the same to make room for a water jacket around the jugs, but will keep the cooling fins to keep the look.
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Re: Hell Hath Frozen Over - 2014 Harley-Davidsons get water

#20 Unread post by Gummiente » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:12 pm

On another forum, this same topic got a response from someone who said they'd read somewhere that the Road Glide is being revamped this year and will return in 2015 with full water cooling. Interesting rumour, but I'll get my chequebook ready just in case it turns out to be true.
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