MSF's worth?

[flw]

I took a took day class, plus a third at the State DMV. (some of us got there 1/2 hour before the DMV opened to get in just a bit more confidence) One just classroom and one just parking lot officially. The Book and video's were MSF labeled and about one year old, and the instructor was a certified MSF instructor.

The MSF is not required by my state. I also took the MSF course about 20 years ago here and passed. I retook a safety class since I have not ridden street bikes in a number of years.

My instructor and I agree feel that people put to much stock into the Holy Grail of the MSF certification and walk away with a dangerously false confidence because it is the most well known in the U.S.

Since I've taken a MSF course years ago and a current non-MSF course that the following is the most important of either:

1. A good instructor with patience.
2. A instructor with experience in more than just the MSF way of doing things. Recognising there is often more than one way to doing something safely.
3. Students with patience for themselves and others.
4. Students that are willing to put even just some extra out of class time on their problem area with a cooperative instructor. You only have two days so make the most of them and any extra 10 min or more you can beg to get.
5. Students really understanding that in any 2 day course
6. Many more points I'm sure I forgot to mention but others surely will.

My point is that unless the MSF is mandated by your state, do not assume that it is the only quality course as on this board its all we seem to here about on a on going non stop basis. There is more than MSF for beginners.

[Lion_Lady]

So what exactly are you trying to say?

I think that many folks (especially those who have NOT taken any of the courses) ASSUME that completing the Basic Rider's Course will make them fully qualified, competent riders, safe to go right out on the streets on any motorcycle they choose.

This is NOT true. What completing the Basic Riders Course does is to give a person the BASIC skills to go out and hone them on their own. It provides essential basics in a safe and supervised environment, where mistakes and bad form can be caught and corrected before they cause a dangerous problem.

The BRC teaches the BASIC skills needed to keep from getting killed. Like emergency braking and obstacle avoidance, as well as some very useful basics like slow speed maneuvers. In the alloted time, usually two evenings and two days, it is simply NOT possible to provide enough seat time to make ANYONE completely 'road ready' especially if they've never ridden a motorcycle before. But it certainly gives folks a good foundation to build on.

I've heard of instructors at the end of the BRC actually saying, "Congratulations. You are now qualified to ride around in circles in a parking lot." Which is true. It is then up to the new student to go out and practice, practice, practice.

P

[rt1maillady]

The thing to remember is that some of us are sitting on a bike for the first time at these classes. Some have been riding for years and they do not get the same benefits from the class. I passed my class and have my license but I still have a long way to go. Since I was not able to get my bike on the road until December and our weather went downhill shortly after, I have only managed to get about 115 miles in. But I will be ready for Spring or any spring-like weather. And the parking lot is MINE!
Rt1maillady

[sharpmagna]

I've heard of instructors at the end of the BRC actually saying, "Congratulations. You are now qualified to ride around in circles in a parking lot." Which is true. It is then up to the new student to go out and practice, practice, practice.

P

I completely agree. I called my buddy who is a MD MSF instructor and he told me, "You are now certified to ride in a parking lot!"

The MSF BRC is an intro to the sport of riding. Like any intro class, it can not possibley cover every topic and scenario thoroughly but touches on the necessary key points. After the BRC, you must take it upon YOURSELF to continue your learning in a safe manner before putting your life on the line.

I'm not sure what was said in your class, but in mine the instructors told us specifically that we still need to continue practicing even though we had passed our class and were certified. They did not sugar coat the subject, they gave it to us straight. I think handling it any differently is ignorant and dangerous to the students.

[High_Side]

Great post Flw

[anarchy]

My instructor and I agree feel that people put to much stock into the Holy Grail of the MSF certification and walk away with a dangerously false confidence because it is the most well known in the U.S.

it surprises me your instructor said that. part of the instructors job is to make sure the students don't walk away with a false sense of confidence and help them understand they just passed a basic rider class. many still need a lot of practice before riding on the street...

[flw]

So what exactly are you trying to say?

I think that many folks (especially those who have NOT taken any of the courses) ASSUME that completing the Basic Rider's Course will make them fully qualified, competent riders, safe to go right out on the streets on any motorcycle they choose.

This is NOT true. What completing the Basic Riders Course does is to give a person the BASIC skills to go out and hone them on their own. It provides essential basics in a safe and supervised environment, where mistakes and bad form can be caught and corrected before they cause a dangerous problem.

The BRC teaches the BASIC skills needed to keep from getting killed. Like emergency braking and obstacle avoidance, as well as some very useful basics like slow speed maneuvers. In the alloted time, usually two evenings and two days, it is simply NOT possible to provide enough seat time to make ANYONE completely 'road ready' especially if they've never ridden a motorcycle before. But it certainly gives folks a good foundation to build on.

I've heard of instructors at the end of the BRC actually saying, "Congratulations. You are now qualified to ride around in circles in a parking lot." Which is true. It is then up to the new student to go out and practice, practice, practice.

P

What you said is basically what I mean. Especially the last paragraph.

[storysunfolding]

I've always felt that there should be something beyond to MSF or parking lot skills test to get a license. 20 mph and below are very safe speeds on a motorcycle, especially out of traffic. The MSF isn't a means to learn new skills, just a guide for getting started on learning those new skills.

Compare the MSF or parking lot skills test to getting a car license where you need x many hours with a certified instructor monitoring you in a variety of road conditions where they are testing your capability and aptitude.

OR

CDL training where you not only have to learn a whole new vehicle, but you have to go through incredibly more difficult tests. Ever parallel park a 40' bus? Yeah, imagine getting that proficiency in a group of 15 in 2 day classes.

Getting a motorcycle license, at least in VA, is the easiest license to aquire and it's the most dangerous vehicle to operate (at least to the driver)

However, the MSF doesn't teach things in the best way to teach them to the individual. They teach in the best way to teach them to a large group. It's like anything else that uses group teaching, you move at the rate of the slowest person. So obviously any course that can cut down the student to teacher ratio can be much more effective than the MSF.

[anarchy]

I've always felt that there should be something beyond to MSF or parking lot skills test to get a license.

in nc all you need to do is pass a twenty five question test and you're allowed to operate a motorcycle on the road!!! sure, it's just a permit, but the only restriction is no passenger.

However, the MSF doesn't teach things in the best way to teach them to the individual. They teach in the best way to teach them to a large group. It's like anything else that uses group teaching, you move at the rate of the slowest person. So obviously any course that can cut down the student to teacher ratio can be much more effective than the MSF.

given the constraints, i think the msf is doing the best they can. smaller class sizes would drive the cost up - maybe prohibitively so.

while there is some truth to the class moving at the rate of the slowest person - there is an expectation on the part of the student to keep up with the class. if the student can't stick with the expected pace of the course, then it's up to the instructor to remove them from the class.

[storysunfolding]

in nc all you need to do is pass a twenty five question test and you're allowed to operate a motorcycle on the road!!! sure, it's just a permit, but the only restriction is no passenger.

That's even scarier

given the constraints, i think the msf is doing the best they can. smaller class sizes would drive the cost up - maybe prohibitively so.

It's definately the best way to do it and they are always looking for ways to improve. The way they get someone who has never operated a motorcycle familiar with it in such a short time is nothing short of amazing.

while there is some truth to the class moving at the rate of the slowest person - there is an expectation on the part of the student to keep up with the class. if the student can't stick with the expected pace of the course, then it's up to the instructor to remove them from the class.

I only see this to some degree. in the MSF courses I've audited and shadowed in prep for the MSF instructor course I've yet to see a class where a student didn't hold up the rest of the class almost to the point of impeding learning.

Often you see the bikes going in a circle and they all back up behind one person who keeps putting a foot down through the weaves... even when they are supposed to be doing them at 15 mph!


For the record, I think the MSF is a great way to begin learning how to ride a bike. It gives basic knowledge, starts you learning some skills (those swerves and emergency stops aren't going to help unless you practice them at higher speeds after the course), and prevents alot of bad habits. At the same time I think it's ridiculous that you get a license for it.