MSC (or MSF) vs. Rider's Edge

[hy_tek]

Wow!! How can you have a motorcycle safety course without teaching students the use of turn signals and rear view mirrors? Try driving without using your turn signals or rear view mirror as a brand new bike driver and see how long before you are either in the hospital or dead!! I am sure this is a very maintenance and cost effective thing to do removing safety equipment which gets broken easily during classes. But you have to draw the line somewhere between saving lives and saving money.

You just sold me on the Drivers Edge program over the community college programs.

In my class we went through the motion of using turn signals and our turn signals worked. But really what sort of practice do you need to do with rear view mirrors and/or turn signals?

They work exactly as they work in a car except the turn signal you have to remember to turn off. Also I never change lanes without looking over my shoulder so what do I need rear view mirrors for?

Yes I suppose you are right.....they should probably take those pesky mirrors and turn signals off bikes since they provide no practical use....

Some people don't wear helmets and never get hurt but does that make helmets useless?...You only need one brake to stop should we do away with one of those too? ....

[Skier]

Wow!! How can you have a motorcycle safety course without teaching students the use of turn signals and rear view mirrors? Try driving without using your turn signals or rear view mirror as a brand new bike driver and see how long before you are either in the hospital or dead!! I am sure this is a very maintenance and cost effective thing to do removing safety equipment which gets broken easily during classes. But you have to draw the line somewhere between saving lives and saving money.

You just sold me on the Drivers Edge program over the community college programs.

In my class we went through the motion of using turn signals and our turn signals worked. But really what sort of practice do you need to do with rear view mirrors and/or turn signals?

They work exactly as they work in a car except the turn signal you have to remember to turn off. Also I never change lanes without looking over my shoulder so what do I need rear view mirrors for?

Turn signals are different on a motorcycle. Just like turning and stopping, riders learn by doing. By making them actually use them, including canceling them, the students are being better prepared for the street.

Mirrors are also a bit different because your blind spots on a motorcycle are different than in a car, due to the smaller size of the vehicle and having two convex mirrors.

[Brackstone]

Turn signals are different on a motorcycle. Just like turning and stopping, riders learn by doing. By making them actually use them, including canceling them, the students are being better prepared for the street.

Well we did practice this at the course. For me personally I would remember to signal but forget to cancel the signal. Canceling the signal didn't become a habit until about after a weeks worth of riding. I think this is a pretty common problem as well.

Mirrors are also a bit different because your blind spots on a motorcycle are different than in a car, due to the smaller size of the vehicle and having two convex mirrors.

I agree with you on this but I just don't see how you can practice it. Mirrors in every car or every bike are a bit different. You get on, you line them up so you can see to the rear properly and you ride.

Now I'm not saying I'm infallible here I just don't see what needs to be practiced. Blind spots are only bad if you need to change lanes no? So as long as you practice doing the over the shoulder blind spot check (which we practiced at my MSF course) you are fine.

[Skier]

Turn signals are different on a motorcycle. Just like turning and stopping, riders learn by doing. By making them actually use them, including canceling them, the students are being better prepared for the street.

Well we did practice this at the course. For me personally I would remember to signal but forget to cancel the signal. Canceling the signal didn't become a habit until about after a weeks worth of riding. I think this is a pretty common problem as well.

Your instructors should have been reminding you to "push to cancel." It won't be a habit instantly in the course but you'll have the groundwork for making it one.

Mirrors are also a bit different because your blind spots on a motorcycle are different than in a car, due to the smaller size of the vehicle and having two convex mirrors.

I agree with you on this but I just don't see how you can practice it. Mirrors in every car or every bike are a bit different. You get on, you line them up so you can see to the rear properly and you ride.

Now I'm not saying I'm infallible here I just don't see what needs to be practiced. Blind spots are only bad if you need to change lanes no? So as long as you practice doing the over the shoulder blind spot check (which we practiced at my MSF course) you are fine.

You practice it by getting the concepts down - figuring out about how much rearwards visibility the mirrors afford and how much you need to clear by turning your head.

Blind spots are a bad place for other vehicles to be in all the time. Lane changes aren't the only time when a vehicle can violate your right of way or you violate theirs.

[storysunfolding]

I'm certain that practice with the turn signals and mirrors is helpful for the 8-10 minutes total that the class goes through that exercise. Seeing the traffic to either side before they make a lane change is equally important...

If this was so crucial an exercise, then you'll have to explain to me why many states stopped teaching it. I've heard the muscle memory arguement before for the turn signals. However, that's not going to help with Harley and BMW riders or any other bike with a different style turn signal. As to the mirrors- since there is nothing in the curriculum about adjusting them- just what are they looking at during the class?

I think reading the owners manual and a ride or two around the block will teach you more about both of these than the class ever could.

[Skier]

I'm certain that practice with the turn signals and mirrors is helpful for the 8-10 minutes total that the class goes through that exercise. Seeing the traffic to either side before they make a lane change is equally important...

If this was so crucial an exercise, then you'll have to explain to me why many states stopped teaching it. I've heard the muscle memory arguement before for the turn signals. However, that's not going to help with Harley and BMW riders or any other bike with a different style turn signal. As to the mirrors- since there is nothing in the curriculum about adjusting them- just what are they looking at during the class?

I think reading the owners manual and a ride or two around the block will teach you more about both of these than the class ever could.

If it's not important, why does the course cover it?

I am not sure why some states have stopped teaching it. I do know, in the state of Idaho, after riders pass the basic riding course, many hit the streets without more practice. With that information we spend time practicing more "real world" situations with an exercise for lane changes and traffic interaction. By allowing the students to interact with each other as if they were on the road, they have a foundation for street riding. I really wish my BRC training had a similar set of exercises, because I hit the streets after training.

Motorcycles with non-standard signals still benefit from the drills, if nothing else from remembering to cancel the bloody things.

I have noticed the mirrors are easily and quickly adjusted by the student for the drills. Of course, not all states keep the mirrors on their training motorcycles.

[storysunfolding]

There are multiple exercises that involve traffic interaction and crossing paths of travel. Still initiating a lane change on a motorcycle is the same as in a car. Check your mirror, turn on your signal, check blind spot, change lane, cancel signal. Since in Va you are required to have a drivers license before getting the M endorsement- I don't see the importance of practicing a skill that you should already have. Not to mention the course only allots enough time for doing this two to three times. Personally I feel that the time used teaching this is better spent perfecting life saving maneuvers such as swerves and quick stops.

Btw- Harley's and BMW's have self canceling turn signals. If you hit one after the turn you're just turning them back on.

[Skier]

There are multiple exercises that involve traffic interaction and crossing paths of travel. Still initiating a lane change on a motorcycle is the same as in a car. Check your mirror, turn on your signal, check blind spot, change lane, cancel signal. Since in Va you are required to have a drivers license before getting the M endorsement- I don't see the importance of practicing a skill that you should already have. Not to mention the course only allots enough time for doing this two to three times. Personally I feel that the time used teaching this is better spent perfecting life saving maneuvers such as swerves and quick stops.

Btw- Harley's and BMW's have self canceling turn signals. If you hit one after the turn you're just turning them back on.

I am constantly amazed by the number of people that don't use a proper lane change procedure in any vehicle. No mirror check, no indicators, no blind spot clearing. By forcing students to actually use the correct technique we know they have at least a base off which to build.

I agree there should be more time alloted to cornering and quick stops in the BRC, but I'd axe other parts of the training before anything else.

I know some Harleys and BMWs have self canceling signals. While the BMWs I've been on and around had buttons to cancel turn signals, I imagine they all do, self-canceling or not.

[Brackstone]

Skier I understand where you are coming from but IMO most people that don't signal or perform a proper lane changes isn't from a lack of knowledge, it's just Apathy.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taught, I'm just standing by my original statement that it's really no different than operating the turn signal and/or mirrors in a car.

[Skier]

I have a hope the riders will put two and two together: understanding their increased vulnerability on a motorcycle and the need to perform safe, proper lane changes.