MSC (or MSF) vs. Rider's Edge

[Brackstone]

I have a hope the riders will put two and two together: understanding their increased vulnerability on a motorcycle and the need to perform safe, proper lane changes.

That's something we both agree on

[hy_tek]

Skier I understand where you are coming from but IMO most people that don't signal or perform a proper lane changes isn't from a lack of knowledge, it's just Apathy.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taught, I'm just standing by my original statement that it's really no different than operating the turn signal and/or mirrors in a car.

OK you have a brand new student learning to ride a motorcycle for the first time. They may have never even sat on a bike in their life let alone operate one. You give them the most basic skills they need to get a motorcycle license in a MSF safety course. You then send them out in a very motorcycle hostile environment( public roads) alone with enough horsepower to seriously injure themselves by making a mistake.

I personally don't think just saying "well it's the same as a car" prepares everyone adequately for what they may experience ahead. When in a car you don't have to clutch, throttle, dual brakes, lean, worry about swerving for a small article in the road, and people not seeing you.....all the while trying to remember to check the mirrors before changing lanes and turn off the turn signal. You have to remember we are talking about total novices here not veteran riders. I think sending them off with a license and not practicing at least a few times these basic safety features is a mistake.

No not everyone feels they need the practice then I say "YAYYYY for YOU"! But for those who are shakey at best with their new toy it is a small thing that may pay big dividends in the end.....by keeping them out of the emergency room.

I think some of you need to remember this is a "New Bikers Forum" not the old pro veterans forum sometimes. What you take for granted may not be so obvious to a person just learning....I think it is much more responsible to be instructed in the use of safety equipment and not need to use it than the alternative.

Ok I think this horse has been beat to death enough to no avail.....lets get back on topic please.

[dean owens]

i love when people point out that this is the new biker forum and don't know that the people they are trying to remind know this quite well. as a matter of fact, i know that at least one of the ones having this discussion is an instructor and deals with new riders on a regular basis.

now to throw in my bit. for crying out loud, it's a parking lot. you're not going to get every bit of practical practice there is. i know we didn't have a big rig come in that we could have pass us so we could deal with the wind. you're getting your basic skills. in our class we did practice with the signals but we didn't have any mirrors on our bikes. i liked the signal practicing only because we weren't allowed to look at our left hand as we did it. it was drilled in us not to be looking at all of those things. we weren't allowed to look to find our kickstand. we just had to put it down. same the petcock and every other switch we used. it was good practice. but there is so much that class doesn't and can't teach. hopefully you're smart enough to know that before you go out and start riding on the interstate.

[hy_tek]

i love when people point out that this is the new biker forum and don't know that the people they are trying to remind know this quite well. as a matter of fact, i know that at least one of the ones having this discussion is an instructor and deals with new riders on a regular basis.

now to throw in my bit. for crying out loud, it's a parking lot. you're not going to get every bit of practical practice there is. i know we didn't have a big rig come in that we could have pass us so we could deal with the wind. you're getting your basic skills. in our class we did practice with the signals but we didn't have any mirrors on our bikes. i liked the signal practicing only because we weren't allowed to look at our left hand as we did it. it was drilled in us not to be looking at all of those things. we weren't allowed to look to find our kickstand. we just had to put it down. same the petcock and every other switch we used. it was good practice. but there is so much that class doesn't and can't teach. hopefully you're smart enough to know that before you go out and start riding on the interstate.

I love when people make demeaning comments trying to discredit others in a friendly debate and use highly exaggerated examples to try and make some point no matter how mute. I immediately write off a person like that and stop listening. I also love people who fixate on a few words taken out of context and start a verbal diatribe. Perhaps some people taking the class are just not as intellectually superior as you and may need the practice.

The fact is the safety equipment is on there for a reason.....nobody ever died from changing lanes without looking at his petcock.....the DMV stresses use of the mirrors and turn signals and it should be covered however briefly in the MSF class in my opinion. And it is only my opinion to which I am entitled no matter how apparently ridiculous it is to some people. I am done with this discussion feel free to further flame me at will sir.

[Skier]

dean owens: I think you would enjoy this article by Wendy Moon, titled Paper Tigers or Hogs, choke holds: judo and rider training.

Improvement to throwing skills doesn’t come from more practice a la uchikomi but when throws are completed in an environment that is as close as possible to the environment they’ll face in randori and shiai. To eliminate all randori is to not just half-train a judoist but to mistrain them because they have no experience learning how to encounter real opposition—it’s all just pretend.

[dean owens]

i love when people point out that this is the new biker forum and don't know that the people they are trying to remind know this quite well. as a matter of fact, i know that at least one of the ones having this discussion is an instructor and deals with new riders on a regular basis.

now to throw in my bit. for crying out loud, it's a parking lot. you're not going to get every bit of practical practice there is. i know we didn't have a big rig come in that we could have pass us so we could deal with the wind. you're getting your basic skills. in our class we did practice with the signals but we didn't have any mirrors on our bikes. i liked the signal practicing only because we weren't allowed to look at our left hand as we did it. it was drilled in us not to be looking at all of those things. we weren't allowed to look to find our kickstand. we just had to put it down. same the petcock and every other switch we used. it was good practice. but there is so much that class doesn't and can't teach. hopefully you're smart enough to know that before you go out and start riding on the interstate.

I love when people make demeaning comments trying to discredit others in a friendly debate and use highly exaggerated examples to try and make some point no matter how mute. I immediately write off a person like that and stop listening. I also love people who fixate on a few words taken out of context and start a verbal diatribe. Perhaps some people taking the class are just not as intellectually superior as you and may need the practice.

The fact is the safety equipment is on there for a reason.....nobody ever died from changing lanes without looking at his petcock.....the DMV stresses use of the mirrors and turn signals and it should be covered however briefly in the MSF class in my opinion. And it is only my opinion to which I am entitled no matter how apparently ridiculous it is to some people. I am done with this discussion feel free to further flame me at will sir.

wow, calm down fella. no flaming here. but you're not the first person i've seen who has limited posts (which is fine - i know it doesn't mean anything about knowledge but it does show newness to this particular board) who points out that this is a new bikers forum to people who know (some that are qualified instructors) and hang out to help.

as to the rest of your reply to my post... ok. you caught me. i'm the pro that loves to take people out of context. now that we have that established enjoy your ride.

[dean owens]

dean owens: I think you would enjoy this article by Wendy Moon, titled Paper Tigers or Hogs, choke holds: judo and rider training.

Improvement to throwing skills doesn’t come from more practice a la uchikomi but when throws are completed in an environment that is as close as possible to the environment they’ll face in randori and shiai. To eliminate all randori is to not just half-train a judoist but to mistrain them because they have no experience learning how to encounter real opposition—it’s all just pretend.

i'll read it later. it's a bit long.

btw, i guess that you too missed where i said i liked it and it was good practice. that's fine. even so, it wasn't the most critical part of the training. something can still be good without being necessary in my eyes. surprisingly enough the things i look back to as the most important are the final four exercises i got tested on. anyway, i have no dog in this fight. enjoy. teach what you want to teach. i hope everyone does learn to use their turn signals correctly. it's very beneficial.

[Skier]

dean, I'm agreeing with you about the practical experience versus what we can do in parking lots. The long blag entry I linked you to discusses that very topic.

[storysunfolding]

I rarely read wendy moon. Off her rocker, blatantly wrong often as not and boring.

[Skier]

I read her blag often, as she appears to be right more often than not. To each their own.