MSF or self-learn riding

[Nalian]

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

Where did you get the impression that the MSF says that once you take the MSF and can do MSF exercises proficiently, you're all set? Every MSF I have been to (numerous, through encouraging friends) ends with telling you that you're now qualified to ride in a parking lot and you need way more practice. In addition to that, the MSF manual itself tells you that more skills training is required and gives you books and exercises to practice. I think it's implied that you have to keep practicing to keep skills sharp. Do you mean you think that they should say that, verbatim? You must always practice?

I'm confused as to the point of this post. Is it that the MSF isn't enough to say that you're totally ready to ride on the street? I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue with that. Is it that people don't practice as much as they should? Again, who is going to argue with that. Humans are lazy and don't like practicing (I do, and I practice frequently because I enjoy it).

The reason you're safer in a car is because of all the technology in safety equipment. It's not due to stellar driving skills. Your comments about practice apply equally to driving a car and riding a motorcycle.

I've been riding for 3 years now, and I know I can manuever my motorcycle way better than my car. The bike itself is way more maneuverable, light, and very easy to ride. And I practice a lot. My car is large, bulky and slow, and I don't practice, well, ever really. I'm still at a minimum of around 32x safer in the car than the bike simply because of the cage, airbag, seatbelt, etc - and the fact that people can't ignore my car like my bike.

[beginner]

Your post is titled "MSF or self learning?" yet you state that you find training valuable.

I didn't name this thread. Some posts were moved to this new thread. I never said either/or between formal training and practice (I mean PLP). I'm saying formal training is not a substitute for practice. To have minimal skill on emergency maneuvers and overall balance skills takes a lot of drills and exercises to create and maintain. By a lot I mean many hours, not a few minutes a year. Normal riding around is not practicing emergency maneuvers.

Rider Training has significant inherent value. Self learners will take much longer to get to the same level of proficiency while developing bad habits and failing to understanding key principles. While there is no study that takes a global view on Rider Training in regard to motorcycle crashes, there is currently a bid in place for someone to undertake that challenge.

The value of training is directly related to the quantity and quality of practice that follows it. A 3 day golf seminar does not make anyone a proficient golfer. The same is true of motorcycle riding.

Here are some statistics from Virginia
-1 in 11 riders takes a motorcycle safety course (not limited to MSF)
-126 riders died in 2007, none had taken a motorcycle safety course.
Now what should I make of that?

Do you have a link? That is a small sample size and there should be multiple years available. There seems to be about 20 serious crashes for every fatality. The rate of crash involvement would be interesting to see. The surveys I've seen about trained vs untrained riders looks at crash involvment, not just fatal injuries.

Step back a second and look at your experience building. In my area my average speed while riding is 50.3 mph. My GPS calculates it everytime I ride and this includes time at a stop. What are you doing that increases your experience at these speeds? In traffic? With decreasing radius turns? Pot holes and couches in the road (remember a couch is a BIG obstacle and I'm in the DC metro area, give a guy 3 second following distance then someone merges in front of you)? How are your sharp downs on downslopes? What regular drills and exercises do you have for these?

You seem to be saying that drills and exercises won't help you cope with emergencies in traffic so doing them is a waste of time?

Lets look at another one of your assertions that you can't gain experience just riding around.

I said just riding around is not practicing emergency maneuvering skills.

The parking lot pales in comparison to real world experience.

By your logic the only place a soldier can work on his survival skills is on a real battlefield with real bullets flying around.

Your point is " That a significant percentage of crashes are from lack of skills that require regular drills and exercises to maintain no matter how "experienced" the rider is." Give me the statistics, tell me where you found them- or stop zealously championing an unprovable point.

The possible value of ongoing drills and exercises are absent from the safety discussion. It has never been considered for study. Again, proof is what each of us decides about the evidence. The influence of drills and exercises on safety margin is not discussed, I can find no studies, the MSF printed materials have very little to say about practice and that does not include an explicit recommendation for routine continuing drills and exercises. It's going to be hard to study something so few people do.

[storysunfolding]

The parking lot pales in comparison to real world experience.

By your logic the only place a soldier can work on his survival skills is on a real battlefield with real bullets flying around.

You missed what I was saying entirely. While mock battles are great training for military units, they don't use nerf guns. Their scenarios don't slow things down, don't involve expected stop points or boundaries. There is no telling what the other side will do, but when they come at you it will be fast and hard.

Your building of the basic skills is admirable, but what are you doing to apply those to more realistic scenerios? By limiting yourself to a parking lot you are limiting the experience you gain. Using your golf analogy, tiger woods might spend a lot of time at the driving range and putting green, but he also practices his game on the links. Why are you afraid to join the rest of the game?

[totalmotorcycle]

The topic seems to be going around in circles. I feel everyone here (in myself) has really helped answer your concerns.

beginner, please re-state your question as it seems we are either misunderstanding it or we are not answering it in a way that you "get it".

If not, I think we did a great job in helping you out and giving you really great advice.

Mike

[beginner]

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

Where did you get the impression that the MSF says that once you take the MSF and can do MSF exercises proficiently, you're all set? Every MSF I have been to (numerous, through encouraging friends) ends with telling you that you're now qualified to ride in a parking lot and you need way more practice. In addition to that, the MSF manual itself tells you that more skills training is required and gives you books and exercises to practice. I think it's implied that you have to keep practicing to keep skills sharp. Do you mean you think that they should say that, verbatim? You must always practice?

Yes, the MSF should explictily recommend lifelong drills and exercises and give some specific guidelines. The MSF main course manual uses the word practice only to refer to another book. In the second book you have to go all the way to the back to find anything and then the guideline is nothing more than do them "without a problem".

I'm confused as to the point of this post. Is it that the MSF isn't enough to say that you're totally ready to ride on the street? I don't think you'll find anyone who will argue with that.

The overwhelming majority of riders I've heard on this topic seem to disagree.

Is it that people don't practice as much as they should? Again, who is going to argue with that. Humans are lazy and don't like practicing (I do, and I practice frequently because I enjoy it).

What exercises to you like to do. How much is frequently?

The reason you're safer in a car is because of all the technology in safety equipment. It's not due to stellar driving skills. Your comments about practice apply equally to driving a car and riding a motorcycle.

If cars had injury and fatality rates comparable to motorcycles a lot fewer people would drive, they would drive slower and fewer miles.

I've been riding for 3 years now, and I know I can manuever my motorcycle way better than my car. The bike itself is way more maneuverable, light, and very easy to ride. And I practice a lot. My car is large, bulky and slow, and I don't practice, well, ever really. I'm still at a minimum of around 32x safer in the car than the bike simply because of the cage, airbag, seatbelt, etc - and the fact that people can't ignore my car like my bike.

The test I use is a little different, am I certain I can maneuver my bike as well as my car in a panic situation. I don't consider routine riding or driving but emergency situations.

[Lion_Lady]

beginner.

What I think I'm "getting" from your posts is that you feel the MSF Basic Riders Course is fatally flawed for these reasons:
1. It does not include a specific regimen for "after completion" practice drills.
2. It does not place enough emphasis on practice in course materials given to students.

Is that about it?

When/where did you take the class? It is entirely possible that the instructor(s) simply failed to emphasize sufficiently the importance of practice to your group. Instructors are, after all, only human and we all have good days and bad days.

P

[MrShake]

This seems like a really symantic based argument here. It seem to me to be about the words used and how they were perceived by the OP.

Most of all of us here would report that at the conclusion of our MSF, we were directed that we needed to practice. You can't really expect more out of this kind of course than direction to practice.
I think the manuals do a good job of directing you to places to find more instruction or help, and then mentioned that practice is needed.
Why argue about the level of conviction you read in the words? Why ignore that many of us have indicated to you that the need for practice after MSF was CLEARLY stated by instructors?
I guess I'm REALLY confused as to what your intentions here are.


Two of your points that stick in my craw every time you mention them however. One is this idea that your inherently capable of maneuvering your car in a panic situation. I'm unsure what actions you are performing in your care that constitute some kind of ability you learned. I'm also curious as to where you learned these actions. Do you practice them daily in a parking lot?
The other is this idea you have that the "widely accepted" thought is that MSF instruction does not reduce motorcycle accidents. I believe that can't be further from the truth, especially in this community. Its been proven over and over in many things that education reduces mistakes. Motorcycles are no different. We have also mentioned the Hurt report, as well as some other statistics that back up our commonly held belief that MSF training reduces accidents, yet these are ignored or refuted without any backup to the contrary.

Again, I ask... what point are you trying to make in being argumentative here? NONE of us argue that your daily practice is a good thing. NONE of us would disagree with you that the more practice a person participates in, the safer they will be. And, ALL of us would benefit from running some drills.

I think you've been asked a couple of times, and I want to throw my voice in there as well.... What point are you trying to make here? Do you have a question?

[Nalian]

There are a lot of folks out there that don't really think about safety and will never agree that they need to practice more. I don't think that you can fix those people.

[beginner]

Most of all of us here would report that at the conclusion of our MSF, we were directed that we needed to practice. You can't really expect more out of this kind of course than direction to practice.

One of the most important things a motorcycle course could do is persuade students to become life-long practicers, as in drills and exercises. The MSF course misses that opportunity by not trying.

Two of your points that stick in my craw every time you mention them however. One is this idea that your inherently capable of maneuvering your car in a panic situation. I'm unsure what actions you are performing in your care that constitute some kind of ability you learned. I'm also curious as to where you learned these actions. Do you practice them daily in a parking lot?

I came up with the car comparison as the best self assessment tool I've found to evaluate my skill level related to safety. Do you have something better?

The other is this idea you have that the "widely accepted" thought is that MSF instruction does not reduce motorcycle accidents. I believe that can't be further from the truth, especially in this community. Its been proven over and over in many things that education reduces mistakes. Motorcycles are no different. We have also mentioned the Hurt report, as well as some other statistics that back up our commonly held belief that MSF training reduces accidents, yet these are ignored or refuted without any backup to the contrary.

The influence of riding courses on crash involvement has been studied. I'm not surprised by what the studies find for reasons mentioned earlier relating to ongoing drills and exercises. Evidence posted earlier:
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/street ... index.html
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/ ... quote]NONE of us would disagree with you that the more practice a person participates in, the safer they will be. And, ALL of us would benefit from running some drills.[/quote]It doesn't appear to me that most riders agree.

[beginner]

There are a lot of folks out there that don't really think about safety and will never agree that they need to practice more. I don't think that you can fix those people.

I think you are mostly right but beginners who take courses have a resonable expectation they will be advised properly and they are easier to influence than people who are already addicted to riding. I noticed after about 40 hours of PLP that I was addicted to skill instead of just riding around. If you are lucky enough to have that happen the parking lot time is no burden at all.