MSF or self-learn riding

[beginner]

What I think I'm "getting" from your posts is that you feel the MSF Basic Riders Course is fatally flawed for these reasons:
1. It does not include a specific regimen for "after completion" practice drills.
2. It does not place enough emphasis on practice in course materials given to students.

If the MSF courses had great success getting people to become life-long practicers, which is entirely feasible, I might be an enthusiastic supporter.

When/where did you take the class? It is entirely possible that the instructor(s) simply failed to emphasize sufficiently the importance of practice to your group. Instructors are, after all, only human and we all have good days and bad days.

My first chance to take the course was after I'd been riding several months. If I'm going to pay for instruction at this point I'm looking for instruction that helps me be a better life-long practicer, not a three day crash course focused on helping me pass a test.
The course ciriculum is not having success in persuading people to become life-long practicers because it doesn't give that advice. It will be a good day for motorcycle safety when that changes.

[storysunfolding]

If I'm going to pay for instruction at this point I'm looking for instruction that helps me be a better life-long practicer, not a three day crash course focused on helping me pass a test.

So you haven't even taken the course that you're slamming?

[ofblong]

What I think I'm "getting" from your posts is that you feel the MSF Basic Riders Course is fatally flawed for these reasons:
1. It does not include a specific regimen for "after completion" practice drills.
2. It does not place enough emphasis on practice in course materials given to students.

If the MSF courses had great success getting people to become life-long practicers, which is entirely feasible, I might be an enthusiastic supporter.

When/where did you take the class? It is entirely possible that the instructor(s) simply failed to emphasize sufficiently the importance of practice to your group. Instructors are, after all, only human and we all have good days and bad days.

My first chance to take the course was after I'd been riding several months. If I'm going to pay for instruction at this point I'm looking for instruction that helps me be a better life-long practicer, not a three day crash course focused on helping me pass a test.
The course ciriculum is not having success in persuading people to become life-long practicers because it doesn't give that advice. It will be a good day for motorcycle safety when that changes.

you must have had some bad instructors because my course SPECIFICALLY and DAILY went over the fact that to become a proficient cyclists requires practice THROUGHOUT your riding career.

*edit nevermind. I now see what the problem is. YOUR COMMENTING ON SOMETHING YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BECAUSE YOU NEVER TOOK THE COURSE.....

[Brackstone]

If I'm going to pay for instruction at this point I'm looking for instruction that helps me be a better life-long practicer, not a three day crash course focused on helping me pass a test.

So you haven't even taken the course that you're slamming?

I second this.

[totalmotorcycle]

After reading beginner's PM to me (as I PMed him about this thread's point), I believe it's supposed to be about "discussing practicing" on a motorcycle. Somehow it all got side tracked down a rough road.

Mike

[Lion_Lady]

Okay. So then, what I'm getting is that you're practicing stuff that you've worked out on your own, with no professional "hands on with feedback" guidance to make sure you're using proper technique.

I believe it was Cal Ripken Sr who said, "Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect."

What I think I'm "getting" from your posts is that you feel the MSF Basic Riders Course is fatally flawed for these reasons:
1. It does not include a specific regimen for "after completion" practice drills.
2. It does not place enough emphasis on practice in course materials given to students.

If the MSF courses had great success getting people to become life-long practicers, which is entirely feasible, I might be an enthusiastic supporter.

beginner, you didn't respond to my query. You simply stated your opinion regarding the BRC's success rate. Given that no recognized body has recently completed (or at least published) any study regarding the success rate of motorcycle basic training, I'd say your argument is in the weeds.

You said you want to discuss practice. But in order to have a meaningful discussion, we've got to begin from a common reference point. If you haven't taken the BRC, you should consider it anyhow. The techniques taught are still valid and correct, even if the course as a whole lacks sufficient (to your mind) stress on practicing.

"Doesn't make a significant difference in safety," okay, so what? Make of what you learn, what you will. No knowledge is worthless and true lifelong learners are always looking for more knowledge. So, you just keep on riding your figure 8s and keep on preaching your doctrine and we'll all just move on.

P

[ofblong]

After reading beginner's PM to me (as I PMed him about this thread's point), I believe it's supposed to be about "discussing practicing" on a motorcycle. Somehow it all got side tracked down a rough road.

Mike

in that case yes everyone needs to practice. Even if its once a month practice thats better than no practice.

For example EVERY winter I try different techniques on my cages to cause low speed spins etc etc and remind myself how to handle my vehicles in the winter. I was just given a truck by my parents and I had to learn how to drive it. Took it to a parking lot and figured out what it takes to get out of a spin etc etc etc. I also purposely (making sure no cars are around) will floor the truck around a corner to force it into a spin to teach myself how to use the clutch/foot off gas to straighten back out. So far this has saved me once this year as my truck started to "spin out" and slide at 45mph. Took foot off gas and it straightened right out (didnt have to push in the clutch that time).

[beginner]

YOUR COMMENTING ON SOMETHING YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BECAUSE YOU NEVER TOOK THE COURSE

What I know about is what the MSF course booklets say and do not say. The priorities are set there. If being a life-long practicer is important the course booklets can say that and fortify it with enough specifics so students can establish meaningful goals and get results in the long run, as in years and decades. Riders trying to be life-long practicers are few and far between. The community doesn't support it. The MSF doesn't promote it.
The instructors, at their discretion, might talk about the necessity of practice but their words are not backed up by the published materials created by the MSF.

After reading beginner's PM to me (as I PMed him about this thread's point), I believe it's supposed to be about "discussing practicing" on a motorcycle. Somehow it all got side tracked down a rough road.

How about adding a practice catagory to this message board?

My intention, months ago, was to find discussion of practice with people who practice. If there was anywhere near the amount of PLP happening that needs to be there would be a lot of forum discussion about it. (If riders practicing was a common sight for motorists it would raise awareness of bikes more than any advertising campaign. I learned that first hand last summer.)

The MSF course is used as a fast track to the M endorsement, that seems to undermine the interest in practice.

I didn't use 'comfortable' and 'without a problem' as practice guidelines. I tried to go way beyond that. It's lucky for me there was no one persuading me that "without a problem" is good enough. There are few people who know what I'm talking about because almost nobody does enough practice to understand. Courses are not a substitute for PLP but they are being used that way.

[JC Viper]

I went to a driving school up the block. The guy's a great driving and riding instructor. He gets you out into traffic on a bike and moves you up from side streets to boulevards and then highways. He also starts you off on finicky dirt bikes to teach you proper clutch and throttle control.

When I got my first bike a couple of months after getting my license I had no worries about riding it home.


Teaching yourself how to ride can and will get you into bad habits and result in poor riding skills. I recommend you read David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling books where he discusses such a thing.

[beginner]

Even if its once a month practice thats better than no practice.

If there is enough practice in the beginning to have a solid baseline the rider can assess how much ongoing practice is enough. Once a month won't preserve skills in any activity where motor/balance skills are the heart of the matter. In golf, lack of practice has no public health consequences. Lack of motorcycle practice is a life or death issue.

I went to a driving school up the block.
When I got my first bike a couple of months after getting my license I had no worries about riding it home.

What did he have to say about ongoing drills and exercises? Did he give you any to do after the instruction?